VW13 worth the wait?

[altoids]

Having just read and watched the VW13 promo & movies, I am a little underwhelmed. Anyone think this an update worth springing for?

BTW, can someone explain what is new about the move by 2 point? VW currently moves by two point. I understand that you can also distribute objects, but the new move seems to function just like the old move, at least in the movie where you click on an object to drag it, then click to drop it. Perhaps Click-click instead of click-drag is a big deal. Should a diagonal line qualify as a new feature? 3-point move would be new (object, origin, destination) allowing measured offsets.

Edited September 13, 2007 by altoids

[Christiaan]

Underwhelmed? This is one of the best upgrades to date in my opinion. Some of the changes in v13 have been a very long time coming. I especially like improvements made to 2D workflow and general usability, and the CAD management stuff is a bloody god send. I don't think NNAs mantra that they've "listened to feedback" is too far off the mark to be honest.

Geez, they even got round to Mac OS X Spotlight search integration.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Having just read and watched the VW13 promo & movies, I am a little underwhelmed. Anyone think this an update worth springing for?

BTW, can someone explain what is new about the move by 2 point? VW currently moves by two point. I understand that you can also distribute objects, but the new move seems to function just like the old move, at least in the movie where you click on an object to drag it, then click to drop it. Perhaps Click-click instead of click-drag is a big deal. Should a diagonal line qualify as a new feature? 3-point move would be new (object, origin, destination) allowing measured offsets.

The move tool is new. I have it, but its made by my local dealer. Some local dealers put extra tools in VW.

[CipesDesign]

There are two new features that are huge time savers, at least for me: first is the ROTATE PLAN, which allows rotation (in plan view) to any angle, and while rotated the drawing behaves just like normal, ie: if a plan is rotated 30?, the walls drawn along the new (rotated) X/Y axes feel just like drawing walls in an unrotated plan. Second is the new ability to apply two different rendering modes to a viewport: a "background" rendering and a "foreground" rendering. This allows the quick production of elevations using (for example) final quality renderworks background, with textures, shadows, etc and hidden line foreground with sketch if you want. What used to take many steps to produce has now been made much much simpler and faster.

[federico]

And what about 3D features, tools, improvements whatsoever? They all seem to have disappaired.

[quigley]

It depends very much on what kind of work you are doing. There have been many improvements to 3D in 2008, not least of all the ability to select multiple PIOs (windows, doors etc) in a wall and move them at the same time, not to mention snapping changes in 3D.

I think this is probably the best upgrade in a many many years for the majority of users in a production environment.

[altoids]

I'll save my judgement until I use 13, but:

Christiaan,the workflow and management, true file ref, etc seem like improvements. My gripe is that many of the features are so far behind the competition, that it is hard to see them as new. Two way worksheets new in 08? Dashed line control, drafting in 3D, design layer viewports, adjusting flipped text (!), interactive open GL shadows, features that other packages have had for years.

Dworks, can you explain a little more about the move tool. How is it different from moving in 12.5?

Peter, I take your point, but AutoCAD and Microstation have had drawing rotate since at least since 2001-ish when I started using them. While no doubt a timesaver and a great feature, it is disappointing that this is what NNA is delivering as new.

And have they done anything to fix the awful snapping and selection in 2d?

[Guest]

altoids - Try the software - you have 30 days to evaluate the software. After 30 days, go back to the older version of VW, and you'll truly appreciate the new features.

[quigley]

I'll save my judgement until I use 13, but:

And have they done anything to fix the awful snapping and selection in 2d?

What's wrong with the snapping and selection in 2d? VW has one of the best "smart" cursors on the market in 2D. 3D is another matter I admit.

[Jershaun]

altoids - Try the software - you have 30 days to evaluate the software. After 30 days, go back to the older version of VW, and you'll truly appreciate the new features.

Doesn't apply to my country (South Africa).

Extremely dissappointed with 2008. I thought it would be more ArchiCAD-ish. More cleaner, smoother and professional. Anyway I'll probably have to wait till 2010 (or maybe 2012-God forbid).

[Jershaun]

I'll save my judgement until I use 13, but:

Christiaan,the workflow and management, true file ref, etc seem like improvements. My gripe is that many of the features are so far behind the competition, that it is hard to see them as new. Two way worksheets new in 08? Dashed line control, drafting in 3D, design layer viewports, adjusting flipped text (!), interactive open GL shadows, features that other packages have had for years.

Dworks, can you explain a little more about the move tool. How is it different from moving in 12.5?

Peter, I take your point, but AutoCAD and Microstation have had drawing rotate since at least since 2001-ish when I started using them. While no doubt a timesaver and a great feature, it is disappointing that this is what NNA is delivering as new.

And have they done anything to fix the awful snapping and selection in 2d?

I definately agree with you. Certain features should have been implemented years ago but they're nowhere to be found. An example is the preview box before opening a file. This technology has been around since 1997 (I think) and VW2008 still doesn't have this. There are certain features that just should be standard and taken for granted and then Nemetschek comes out and says they've discovered something new.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I haven't used VW2008 yet and if I'm wrong, I will apologise.

My 2 cents.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Dworks, can you explain a little more about the move tool. How is it different from moving in 12.5?

Well, there was no move by points tool in VW until now. So all versions up to 12.5 have no move by points tool in the original version.

Some local dealers add tools to VW to provide their users with more specific things for their country and with other tools. So like for example my local dealer (Design Express) made a move by point tool years ago and put it into our local version of VW. So that's why some will have such a tool up to 12.5 and other don't.

NNA now implemented it into VW2008.

I hope this is clear.

[Chris D]

It already looks like a must-have upgrade for me: object-highlighting, view rotate, wall component classes, robust referencing

Some of these might have been slow to come to VW - but hey, they're here, and in a low-cost CAD program.

This version will be less of a shock to ex AutoCAD users, and for that alone it's worth the cost (and the wait!)

[Petri]

AutoCAD and Microstation have had drawing rotate since at least since 2001-ish when I started using them. While no doubt a timesaver and a great feature, it is disappointing that this is what NNA is delivering as new.

Dear me! It IS new in VectorWorks. Now, refresh my memory: since what year have AutoCAD and MicroStation had

- true line weights, pen/fill colours and patterns

- decent manipulation of polygons

- parametric objects

- "specific" object types such as walls and slabs

- a true database

- actual WYSIWYG

- and so on.

Why do I have the feeling that features like these have been promoted as "new" by Messrs AutoCAD and MicroStation and sold at a huge premium on (Architectural Desk)top of the astronomical base price?

---

Flipside: you still get the hugely, enormously efficient classes/layers -structuring for free. Messrs AutoCAD and MicroStation have nothing even remotely similar. But of course, this is another issue.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Petri

[Chris D]

When I switched from AutoCAD to VW with a job move (at VW version 10), the two things that impressed me most were as Petri mentioned - having classes AND layers, and the WYSIWYG colour drawings with fills etc.

Last time I checked, AutoCAD still doesn't have these.

[Jershaun]

The Point isn't what AutoCAD has or hasn't. We all know that VW is a superior product. The POINT is what VW hasn't got. Don't you want VW to become the best and to be the leader?

It also is a lot harder to sell someone on VW even with all it's "pros" when an AutoCAD user picks on the elementary stuff VW can't do.

[Christiaan]

Well you agreed with those who were comparing VectorWorks unfavourably to AutoCAD, etc.

[Chris D]

Shaun, I do agree about sorting out the elementary stuff, but I think my own list of these things is full of ticks in boxes when I look at the 2008 blurb.

It's worth making your own list of these remaining bugbears, and sticking it on the Wish List forum. They do seem to pay attention to this when developing upgrades.

[Petri]

Elementary, Dr. Shaun!

People who choose their CAD software on the basis of elementary items, shall continue to do so regardless. VW has gone well beyond (drafting) elementaries years ago; in fact, skipped those (partly, for worse). Nevertheless, it would be - for once - interesting to hear what are these essential elementaries that would have millions of former AutoCAD users atone and buy VectorWorks.

---

As a person who pushes the envelope, I have little sympathy with those who pull it. Draughtsmen of the world, unite and be happy with draugthing software such as AutoCAD!

Edited September 14, 2007 by Petri

[altoids]

Dworks,

Am I being thick? How on earth did you move things?

We use the selection tool, click on the object, drag it somewhere and drop it. The video for the new move by points shows almost exactly this, though it is click-move-click (and a pretty rubber-banding line) instead of click drag. I must be missing something because I find it hard to believe that this is toted as a new feature.

Petri,

My complaint is not about how many features a package has, but once claiming them, providing usable tools. There has been a long list of VW infuriating tool implementation. I'l tackle just a few here to make my point, but I am sure you have your own pet peeves (stair-maker anyone)?

AutoCAD never claimed to be a 2 or 3d parametric object modeler (and it vanilla version still doesn't, as far as I know), but their 2D drafting tools are superb, quick and efficient. Not flawless, but it never got in my way. I had no trouble reshaping a polygon, referencing layers, clipping referenced layers, rotating them, setting pen table for drafting, etc. I never hit a wall with AutoCAD, there was nothing that it wouldn't let me do. True WYSIWYG? Doesn't everyone use the color for line weights technique, as screen resolution is to low to precisely discern line thickness? Do you remember how VW couldn't plot correct thickness diagonal lines until the last release? Basic stuff that is fundamental to CAD, remained lingering for years. And 12.5 couldn't generate pdf without significant error until the latest 12.5.2 patch.

And I wouldn't shout too loudly about VW polygon tools, if you include their Ceiling Grid tool as part of this set. It is almost useless, as upon resizing an area, everything but the area disappears - nothing to snap to.

3D tools, while capable, are (were?) laborious. Editing in 3D is/was puppy-kicking awful. Even the 2 and 3D on the same screen is cumbersome. ArchiCAD has sever limitations, is expensive, but it can produce almost any 3D building model at break-neck speed, and rarely endangers puppies. Play with a true 3D modeling/animation package, and VW 3D manipulation seems broken.

2D snapping best in class? Even Katie wrote in another thread that in VW12.5 selecting the correct object was difficult. How many times do you click on a selected item, only to have VW grab some other object? VW feature list commendably long, but using them is at time tedious.

Again, as I said, and Katie reiterated, I should try VW13 before moaning. I would stop grumbling if this release has the simplicity and fluidity of Illustrator or SketchUp, and no new features. Just fix the usability, nothing new needed.

[Petri]

AutoCAD never claimed to be a 2 or 3d parametric object modeler (and it vanilla version still doesn't, as far as I know), but their 2D drafting tools are superb, quick and efficient.

Fine. You are obviously a draughtsman/draughtsperson. Go and do draughting. Quickly and efficiently. Superbly.

I'm not. I won't. Should I subsidize your choice of business activity? I don't think so. But tell you what: you can buy TurboCAD for a fistful of dollars!

[Petri]

True WYSIWYG? Doesn't everyone use the color for line weights technique, as screen resolution is to low to precisely discern line thickness?

What? Never heard of this.

Do you remember how VW couldn't plot correct thickness diagonal lines until the last release?

What? With (i) PostScript, this was never an issue; with (ii) Windows never was either and with (iii) Mac OS X, was able to be dealt with*. OK - should have had an easier solution. Now, this makes VW a Bad Program? Especially compared with AutoCAD?

*)"To make your legacy apps produce postscript, similarly to how they behaved in Jaguar, enter this command at a terminal prompt:

defaults write NSGlobalDomain com.apple.print.apple.pictwpstopdf YES"

Edited September 14, 2007 by Petri

[Jershaun]

Hi

Christiaan:

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agreed with one point being:

"My gripe is that many of the features are so far behind the competition, that it is hard to see them as new"

I still maintain that there's a lot of features lacking in VW and VW is playing catchup in certain departments.

Chris D:

I'll do it when I can a break.

Petri:

They might have gone beyond the 2D elementary stage but what I see VW being is a poor attempt at being BIM software or half baked.

altoids:

Before, one should have to pick on the object to drag or copy it. Now the base point does not have to be on the object. One can select an object and then move/copy it based on other points in the drawing. Hope this makes sense.

[Petri]

Petri:

They might have gone beyond the 2D elementary stage but what I see VW being is a poor attempt at being BIM software or half baked.

OK. Just substantiate this claim. What is missing, what is wrong, what is half-baked?

[Christiaan]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agreed with one point being:

"My gripe is that many of the features are so far behind the competition, that it is hard to see them as new"

I still maintain that there's a lot of features lacking in VW and VW is playing catchup in certain departments.

So basically, comparisons with the competition are valid when criticising VW but not the other way round.