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Please help with 3D house


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Hi guys,

I'm a long time AutoCAD user but I'm currently trying out a demo of Vectorworks Architect 12.5 with a view to a possible switch - however - I'm experiencing difficulties getting my head around the 3D model part.

The 2D stuff seems pretty straight forward (I used to be a MiniCAD user) and I am happy that if i made the switch I could handle that part of the program but I seem completely unable to construct a simple 3D model of a basic 2 storey house with a concrete ground floor, timber first floor and hipped roof.

I can get the walls, windows and doors sorted at ground floor level but seem completely unable to get the floors, upper walls and roof to sit at the right levels.

I have tried looking up help on the internet but don't seem able to get over this hurdle.

I'm pretty sure it's all to do with me setting up the model incorrectly and hope that someone out there can get me started before I have to revert back to AutoCAD. What I think would really help me would be someone to tell me how to set up a model something like as follows:

Overall external footprint of 15m x 7.5m

No basement

Finished floor level 150mm above ground level.

2.4m ground floor to ceiling heigh.

200mm deep joisted first floor with 25mm boards over.

2.4m first floor to ceiling height.

30 degree pitched roof.

300mm eaves overhang/soffit.

200mm deep fascia.

I know it's a big ask but I'm sure if I could overcome my current model phobia I would really like to become a full time Vectorworks user and invest in some proper training materials. Any help or tips would really be appreciated.

Sorry of something like this is already on the forum but I'm new here.

Cheers

Sizzles

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Go to Organize menu > Layers?

Create a layer for each floor level, giving it the right Z value and layer height.

Insert your objects into their appropriate layers. Walls will automatically adjust in height.

Next, create a "MODEL" layer. From the View menu, go Layer Links?, and choose your individual floor level layers. You'll see the complete model, with everything on it's own height.

There's a lot more to tell on the subject no doubt, but understanding the principle of VectorWorks layers is a good place to start IMHO. Not in the least because it takes a different approach as AutoCAD layers.

Best of luck !

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Thanks for the quick response! Your advice makes a bit of headway for me but I'm afraid I'm not quite there yet. No walls visible at first floor level, roof floating thin air, no apparent floor structures in place etc.......

I had hoped to use the model setup tool which I believe (but may be wrong) does what you are suggesting from a single dialog box. I think what would be very useful to me would be someone to tell me exactly how to complete the model set up box to achieve the parameters of my first post so I an see how it should be done correctly and the layers etc get set up automatically in the proper way.

I know it's the basic fundamentals I'm struggling with and hope that if I an get my head around them I'll be up and running in no time.

If someone could tell me exactly what to put unto each box of the model set up dialog to achieve what I want I would be eternally grateful. Also, if the following mysteries could be cleared up:

How do I draw a ground plane for the proposed building to be sat upon?

In the model set up dialog, do I want to set up slab layers?

Does a roof have its own layer?

What is the difference between Z and delta Z?

In model setup is Z the external ground level or finished ground floor slab level?

In model setup for Mod-floor-1 is the elevation (ff) the finished floor level above Z?

In model setup for Mod-floor-2 is the elevation (ff) automatically calculated from the Mod-floor-1 information?

In model setup for Mod-roof is the elevation ® set from the Mod-floor-1 & 2 information?

I really am totally clueless at the moment and apologize for such a long post with so many questions but I am totally confused.

Cheers

Sizzles

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Hi Jim. I've tried the tutorials and for everything else they are really good but I don't seem to be able to get to the bottom of the model setup. That is why I am having to ask for specific help to overcome my difficulties

I am finding Vectorworks to be very intuitive in all other respects but it is just this one issue that I keep getting stuck with which is stopping me from wanting to take the leap from AutoCAD to what in all other respects appears a far superior and user friendly piece of design software.

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z is the level that you want the layer to be on. for example, the first floor is 0 (z=0'-0"), and the second floor is 9' above that (z=9'-0"), etc. delta z is the thickness of that layer. so the first floor should be 9' and the second floor 8' (if your ceiling height is 8'). what i find useful is to draw a section throught your house, by hand, and sketch out the height of all the levels. floors are not important in a model unless you will be doing interior views or cutting hot sections.

have you reviewed the user's guide?

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Starting from a fresh document, you have but one layer.

Open the Layers dialog, and give it a height (delta-Z). Now, when you create a new layer, you'll see that VW puts it right on top of the former one - the layers are being stacked like in a real building. That being the default behavior, you can always enter other values : perhaps you want a split-level, or even 2 layers at the same level. You can lift layers apart from each other and in doing so create a cavity to put floors. Your roof can sit on it's own layer, depending on the complexity.

Whatever layer you're drawing on, you can pretend it's bottom level to be zero. The layer links and the Stack Layers command on the other hand put things "in perspective" (i.e. stacks the layers).

Edited by Gerrit
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Thanks for that. I have reviewed the user manual, and I'm sure I'm just having a mental block, but I can't find anything that says "if you want to build a simple model of a two storey dwelling of traditional UK construction, you will need to enter the following..............".

I can't find anything that is as basic as that and that is why I am asking for help from forum members as a last resort before giving up the hope of being a Vectorworks user. A lot of things allude to it but I can's find a simple step by step guide.

If anyone out there could give me a simple step by step list of how to achieve what I am trying to achieve I will never bother any of you again as I will be able to decide if to buy and then use Vectorworks full time and then buy the training material/take a course after. I just need to see how to make a basic model so I can assess if Vectorworks is as good as I think in could be for the type of work I am doing.

The use of automatically created elevations and live sections would be very helpful for my type of work and that is why it would be so useful to have a package that I would be able to produce a detailed model with. I just don't seem able to do what the software appears fully capable of doing and apparently no one else has a problem achieving.

Can anyone please help?

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That looks more like what I'm after - but I can't read Dutch unfortunately. Can anyone either convert the guide into english or answer my question list?

You are my last resort..................................before being committed to AutoCRAP forever!!!!!!!!! Noooooooooooooooo.....

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OK, I'm a total noobie here (still working on my first VW project) but I'll chime in with my 2c.

It took me a while to get my arms around VW after working in ACAD but I'm starting to get the hang of it. I found the VW training CDs ( http://www.nemetschek.net/training/trainingcd.php ) to be pretty helpful. The cost was well worth the time saved. Be sure to start with the fundamentals (I know it doesn't seem like you should need to but it really helped me understand the VW paradigm.) The other training materials that might be worth looking into are from Archoncad ( https://plus36.safe-order.net/archoncad/manuals/manuals.php ). These are supposed to be more like a step-by-step guide for an architectural project.

That being said, I think that you were on the right track with the Model Setup "wizard" (File>Document Settings>Model Setup.) You specify the number of stories and basement as well as heights for each. Then you need to set up your drawing sheets (and classes) by using the Create Standard Viewports wizard (File>Document Settings>Create Standard Viewports.) This process sets up your layers, classes and drawing sheets for you. THEN you need to use the Saved Views (right most tab in Navigation Palette) that are created by the Model Setup when you draw each floor plan. This makes sure that you're drawing on the right layer. AND you need to be sure that the walls you're drawing are set to take their height from the layer (Insert Options tab in Edit Wall Style palette.)

You can check on (and set) the layer and wall height of a given wall by clicking on it and looking at it's properties in the Object Info palette. You can check on (and set) the layer Z and height (delta Z) in the Organization dialog box (Tools>Organization.)

I assume that you've already grasped that VW classes are roughly equivalent to ACAD Layers and that VW Layers are (generally speaking) containers for each floor's elements.

As I said, I'm just getting started but I felt your pain so I thought I'd try and help.

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Cheers Bill, thanks for the advice. I've had a look at the sample chapter in the Archoncad Architect book and it looks really good - if I had the next couple of pages after the sample chapter finishes I think my questions could be answered. I'm picking up lots of good snippets but for some reason (operator error!) I just can't put them all together and make the thing work.

My problem is, though, I'm in a chicken and egg situation at the moment - I am not a Vectorworks user as yet so I don't really want to have to buy any manuals etc for a program that I may not adopt, however, unless I can learn the basics of model creation so I understand the way the program works and then see if modeling is the way for me to work in the future. If you see what I mean. That's why I'm trying to get some free advice here before committing to the expense of new software and training for a program that may not quite do what I hope it does.

If I can crack this current model "blindspot" I am having and using models will do what I think it will do for me (I want to physically try one - hence the need to know exactly how to do it) I will definitely purchase the training material, starting with the Archoncad stuff as it looks really impressive.

I promise I'm not a halfwit for which there is no hope, I'm normally very good at picking up CAD related stuff, I just can't put the pieces together to make a simple model in Vectorworks.

Someone please take pity and give me the idiots list I so desperately need to remove the fog from my view................

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Let's start from scratch.

You'll probably understand the Model Setup better, if you go through this simple example before running the Model Setup command:

* create a new document from a default fitting your needs. Let's say you pick Architect.sta. Pick one where the units will be OK for you: metrical. Pay attention that your units settings might now be mm, because of the template. You find the units setting relevant for this experiment in File > Document Settings > Units > General Display > Units: set meters or mm as you need, but pay attention that I am using now meters in this explanation.

* The Navigation palette has many tabs, alt-click the "Layers" tab. The Organization Dialog appears. There you can view all layers and more. Let's speak now only about the layers.

* You have only one layer, now. This layer (which is a floor for you), has:

Z = 0 (height above an imaginary ground level)

dZ = 0 (thickness of the floor, until the next floor)

Set Z = 0.15m (this is your expressed wish for the ground floor)

Set dZ = 2.4m + (thickness of the floor slab ). Let say your slab has .35m then the height dZ is 2.75m

Now you have a ground floor with ceiling height 2.4m residing .15m above ground.

We don't deal yet with the thickness of the floor slab, that would be the missing .35m that you need for creating a ceiling height (pavement and construction).

* On the Organization Dialog select "New". A dialog appears, name the new layer how you please.

A new layer (floor) will be created. If you look at it throughly, you'll notice that the new layers picks values relatively increasing from the previous: this new layer has now:

Z = 2.9m

dZ = 2.75m

Let's now stop here for a moment. Exit the Organization dialog clickin on OK.

* In the first layer draw some walls, like they would be enclosing a room, take care that their attribute "Link wall height to layer dZ" is ON. This you find in the Object Info Palette selecting the walls. Copy the walls, paste them in the second layer.

* In the Navigation Palette > Layers you have two layers. Set the pull-down menu "Layer Options" to "Show Others". Make sure both layers are visible.

* Select View > Stack Layers.

Now you can view comfortably your model.

Stack layers is meant for viewing, so to further work on the drawing you should disable it again.

* Go to the last layer you created, select all walls

* Select AEC > Create Roof...

* A dialog for creating a roof appears.

Set Roof Pitch to 30, check the radio button near it.

If you want the roof to be in a new layer, set Layer > "New Layer" in the pop-up menu. A new dialog appears, name the new roof layer how you please. Confirm the dialog OK.

Confirm the Roof Dialog with OK. There you have a roof, which you can further modify.

It takes 2 minutes to set this up once you know how to.

This is programmatically simplified and made project-wide compliant with the Model Setup command, which you'll probably enjoy later.

I hope now you got the grip of how the VW model work. It is actually excellent. Fast, uncomplicated and efficient. You'll love it.

orso

Edited by _c_
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Orso, thank you very much for your detailed walkthrough, however, I have done exactly as you instruct twice now and both times I have a model with the roof appearing to sit between the first and second floors, about half way up the building height, not on top of it.

All was well until I created the roof. I set the roof pitch to 30 degrees and set new layer and indeed a roof appeared on new layer. But at the wrong height.

When I created the roof, the only value I set was the roof pitch. I did not change anything else so the default values for bearing height and eave height were left at 2750mm. Is this correct as it does not make sense to me unless Vectorworks only uses the pitch box to design the roof and ignores the others.

Looking at the set up of the new layer which was created automatically by the roof design tool it shows the Z and deltaZ values to be 0 with the stacking order being 1. I would have thought if the Z value was 0 the roof would be sitting at the bottom of the model, not half way up it. If this Z value is incorrect, what should it be?

This is the typical type of problem I have every time I try a model in Vectorworks and I'm now sure it is mainly to do with Z and deltaZ values.

I'm almost there (I think) but just not quite. Filling in the last few blanks would be very much appreciated. Knowing how to place the floors and external ground at the right level would also be marvelous.

Thank you all so much for your help.

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You should give manually a proper Z and dZ value to the layer where the Roof resides. The new layer created by the roof command is always one above the one you're in, in the stacking order, which has no direct influence on its height.

Since you might have very specific values for your roof layer, this new layer has blank values. Mostly we use a layer that has already been prepared, where most likely other things reside.

As to the roof modification, there is so much there to say. Please first go through the official documentation.

The floor is placed with the AEC > create space command. Take care to select the walls first that will be forming your floor slab.

You can also draw a polygon and do AEC > floor, which is much simpler.

* select the walls

* Create Polys form Walls > check Gross Area to TRUE, then you have a proper polygon.

* AEC > floor

Thickness = .35m,

bottom Z = -.35m

The Floor will be perhaps insufficient for the external terrain, there you might wish to explore the DTM facilities (AEC > Terrain)

Edited by _c_
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Thank you for that Orso.

Using what seems logical to me, on the model I am now looking at the Z value for the roof layer should be 150mm + 2750mm + 2400mm = 5300mm to have the bearing of the roof sat directly on top of the first floor walls but if I input that figure the roof is placed well above the top of the walls.

If I change the Z value to 2400mm the roof appears to be too low with the top of the first floor walls (set up as cavity walls) project through the roof. Does this mean that the roof is at the right height with the ceiling of the first floor at a height of 2400mm above finished first floor level and the walls need to be somehow cut down, as would be the case in real world construction whereby the top of the internal leaf is higher than the top of the external leaf due to the pitch of the roof?

I just don't get why the Z of 5300mm is incorrect as it should be the height of the wallplate if everything relates to Z at zero being the imaginary ground level.

I think this is the basis of the problems I am having with models in Vectorworks. I really appreciate your help.

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You can set the roof's layer to more fitting Z (not confuse this with dZ) or you can modify the roof's value. This can be complex.

Whatever you do, you'll like this command:

* Go to the layer below your roof

* Select the walls which are involved with your roof

* AEC > Fit walls to roof. Select the proper layers in the dialog. It is one of my favorites. :)

I guess your are almost there. You just need to experiment a little. It is really easy, actually. Let the application do math for you, always create new layers from "New", if you are in trouble.

The whole model story is a layer's Z, dZ story. It isn't much, actually.

Edited by _c_
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Thank you very much Orso - it's all beginning to make sense at last.

Is the 2400mm I mentioned in my previous post correct as the Z height on the roof layer to make the roof sit correctly for a first floor ceiling height of 2400mm.

Why is it not 5300mm which seems to me to be the logical height as it is related to the imaginary ground level. Are the Z values relative to each layer or the absolute? Is this just a thing with roofs in Vectorworks?

Cheers

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The layer Z values are absolute in the current document.

I don't know exactly how you built your roof, but some elements might cause it to seem to shift. After all you can always:

* press key 2 (front view) while you are in the roof layer

* check if this roof instance is really sitting on its Y = 0,

* and even if it sits there, well, move it! Take the whole roof and do move it by the y needed.

:)

ciao,

orso

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