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Christiaan

Get rid of "None" and "Main" Classes

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but rather that I don't have a predisposition to find anomalies in minutiae.

the tendancy

I see.

Well, whatever. It is fascinating to witness a fisticuff about the meaning of simple English words between native English speakers. (Here I'm graciously including Kiwis & "Americans" in the said group, against my better knowledge.)

Hello? Anyone interested in the logical concept that would not be dependent on (more or less poor) linguistic skills? Well, I didn't think so.

What's the problem with "None"?

Edited by Petri

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As I alluded to, the problem I have with 'None' stems mostly from showing others how to use VW rather than my own use.

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OK. Acknowledged. Not actually understood, but if "others" have problems with the status quo, obviously status quo is wrong. The user never is.

Nevertheless, "General" does not sound like a solution, vice versa, if you ask me. In my simple mind, "None" means "NIL", "undefined" and any other variation of the same. Works very nicely for me, but I'm starting to see your point.

For once, I'm not taking a stance or try to demonstrate superior logical, pointy-eared, conceptual thinking. If the Vulcan logic does not work - well, then there's something wrong.

Could this, by any chance, be related to the muddled, totally stupid & useless classes of NNA PIOs? Are they the source of this confusion?

Anyway, I sincerely apologize for the previous insulting post.

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As I alluded to, the problem I have with 'None' stems mostly from showing others how to use VW rather than my own use.

If you think that is hard try explaining the why's and wherefore's of Autocad's Layer 0. At least None gives you a hint as to what it might be for. How does zero do that?

Having some sort of classification system is essential for a CAD program so you can organise and use what you draw / model effectively. The problem is there are many ways you can cut the cake. How do you determine which is right and which is wrong?

If you need to you can develop a system that suits your needs and context through Standards Naming. All it requires is some time and some diligence - an absolute necessity though is clarity of thought about the structure you want. It is not something to do on a whim based on a half baked concept.

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Tsk, tsk. AutoCAD is not The Benchmark. Users are. If users do not grasp the meaning of "None" (= "NIL" = "0"), then, well - Houston, we have a problem.

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Much Ado About Nothing, ye Gentlemen of Verona. A none by any other name would smell as sweet.

'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;

Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.

What's Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot,

Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part

Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!

What's in a name? That which we call a rose

By any other name would smell as sweet;

So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,

Retain that dear perfection which he owes

Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,

And for that name which is no part of thee

Take all myself.

Edited by Petri

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Anyway, I sincerely apologize for the previous insulting post.
Who are you, and what have you done with Petri?

Mike,

Maybe it was called that simply because Autocad layers are displayed in alphabetical order? Calling it "0" keeps it at the top forever, since you can't rename it. I remember that some people used to number their AC layers, back when there weren't so many of them. Lots of people used 8-digit numbers as filenames, because they were limited to 8 characters under DOS.

Orso,

You counted the words???

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I find myself in agreement with those who consider 'None' an odd choice of nomenclature for something that does have existence, and indeed parity with all the other classes one might create. It's not null in any sense. Not inactive, not unusable, not irrelevant, not invisible, not useless, not empty.

What else could it be named that conveys its presence more clearly?

Default, Misc, Placeholder, Base, Root, General, Indefinite, Undefined, Hotchpotch, StuffWeDontKnowWhatToDoWith?

OK, so the last one might break something?

Joel.

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Jan,

In earlier versions of Microstation Layers were only identified by numbers. I have worked with a client's Autocad protocol where the layers were only identified by numbers. Both systems were incredibly user unfriendly and prone to error because of it.

This debate is about the naming of the 'not uniquely classified' Class. You will not get agreement on its name no matter what you call it. I tried to explain to Christiaan and co. the logic behind None (as I see it), and why it has validity, so that they would have a way to explain it to their users. The 'not uniquely classified' problem is not unique to VW - Autocad has its zero layer, Archicad used to have its 'Archicad' layer etc.

Notwithstanding all of that you can in fact call the 'None' Class whatever you like by setting up your own Standard. So if you really have a problem with it being called None there is a way around it. The problem with a unique standard is it has to be maintained, and more importantly if you get new staff you will have to train them so they know how to use that unique standard. That could be expensive, not to mention frustrating for new employees with previous VW experience who will then have to learn a whole new system. It is far better to leave the Standard as it is and deal with it.

The reality is this Class isn't going to change from None just because half a dozen users have a problem with it. They will just have to learn to live with it.

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Orso,

You counted the words???

command + A

Safari > Services > TextWrangler > New Window With Selection

command + A

command + I > here you have all words

just randomly removed 300 from the count because of html layout stuff.

I am unable to count.

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Well, that's a relief. The thread is incredibly long-winded and inane, as you pointed out, and I was distressed at the thought that someone made it worse by manually counting the words. My browser doesn't have that feature.

But what about that Venetian blind thing? You said you never heard of them in Venice. That makes sense. I noticed that the French called their French fries something else when I was there, and my German friends told me they don't know what we mean by German chocolate cake, and that they have something called American cookies.

But do the Venetians have the thing that we in the U.S. call Venetian blinds? Maybe under a different name? Persian blinds? This photo shows something that looks a bit like Venetian blinds, only they're on the exterior. They'd be more effective there, but wouldn't withstand the climate in much of the U.S.

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German chocolate cake is named after Sam German, who developed the chocolate for Baker's Chocolate Company. The original name was German's Chocolate Cake and somehow the 's was dropped. I'm only posting this because if fits this thread in inaneness...

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I am having trouble doing this.  I have created my own standard, and set the standard in the Standard Naming - but my file still has a none class and it still will not let me delete it in favor of 0_None as i have set up in the Standard Naming....

 

Any ideas on whats going on?

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On 4/2/2020 at 5:01 PM, Tom Klaber said:

I am having trouble doing this.  I have created my own standard, and set the standard in the Standard Naming - but my file still has a none class and it still will not let me delete it in favor of 0_None as i have set up in the Standard Naming....

 

Any ideas on whats going on?

None and Dimension are default classes.

There's no way to eliminate either of them.

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You could set up a Class Filter that list all classes except None & Dimension.

But I think some PIOs and imported Symbols etc will still make use of those classes so best leave them turned on in the background just in case.

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