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I find that 3d objects (say an extrude with solid fill) can only be picked by edge.
Is that only in Wireframe or Dashed Line mode? In Shaded or Unshaded Polygon mode I think you should be able to grab it by any surface that has a fill. Unless that's been changed since version 10.

... like 2d rectangles which means they can be dragged from anywhere ...
So you find that 2D rectangles in version 12 can be dragged by clicking on their fill area?
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It seems odd that selecting objects by clicking on their filled surfaces should vary so much by version, and perhaps by region.

2D / 3D object selectable by fill

no / yes (v12.5.2 aus - David)

yes / no (v12.5.1 usa - Jeff)

yes / --- (v12 usa - Amy)

yes / yes (v10.5.1 usa - Jan)

Anyone else?

Is there a setting for this in Preferences?

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Ray, the 3D part of the chart is for whether you can select a 3D object by its fill when you can see the fill. Can you do that? If so, then you're a "yes / yes" on the chart.

Jeff's "no" for 3D means he can't select 3D objects by fill "in any mode", as he said when I asked him about Shaded and Unshaded Polygon modes.

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I can't find where David gave a no / yes answer.
David wrote:

"At the moment you can't click anywhere on an overlying solid and select it - you can only select it by clicking on an edge or vertex."

I quoted that in my reply, and spoke specifically of filled and unfilled rectangles, and he replied that he had the opposite experience with both v11 and v12.

Also, the thing David and I were discussing was "...the 2D Selection tool's ability to select/de-select objects", and how sometimes it shouldn't select/de-select but just move the existing selection set. So that's where I got his "no" for 2D. Could be wrong. Only he can say for sure.

I inferred a "yes" for 3D because when Amy said she can select by filled area, he asked her:

"Are you really talking about a solid 3D object here?"

I don't know why he would suggest that unless he himself is able to select 3D objects by fill.

And his suggestion that she was changing the subject to 3D further reinforces my notion that we were all talking about 2D solid-filled objects until then. But maybe not. David?

As you said, Ray, it seems more likely different parts of the elephant. In particular, the 2D/3D thing shouldn't be reversed, unless it's something about northern/southern hemisphere, like with the direction water swirls when it drains.

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The penny has just dropped for me, because we aren't all talking about the same thing at the same time...

To start, Jan15's chart for me is incorrect, it should be a yes/no, same as Jeff. It's not a hemisphere thing at all, and we're not all going down the drain the wrong way!

I was always talking about 3D in this thread, but I may have started the confusion.The initial post said "solid object (in 2d)" and I misread the 2d. So I apologise if this was resposible for getting the thread off the track.

I think the confusion stems from the terminology being used. When I see the "solid object" I always think of a 3D solid. VW has three types of 3D objects - solids, meshes and nurbs, with solids being the most common. To me 2D objects are either filled or unfilled - I'd rather not use the term solid in reference to a 2D object at all.

A filled 2D object can be - and always has been - able to be dragged by its surface. In v11 and v12 no 3D object can be, whether rendered or wireframe. I have a vague memory that this may have changed from a previous version, but can't be sure. If there was a change it's vast improvement in selecting and manipulating 3D objects.

Jan15's suggestion that shaded and unshaded polygon renders should be selectable has some logic, as the 3D objects now have a surface, but I can't see how useful this might be. I can't see why one would want to select a surface instead of an edge or vertex - It's much less accurate. And dragging a rendered object initiates a re-render. That seems to be a very slow way of working.

Some further level of complexity to the issue is introduced when the fill options of a 3D object are considered, because a 3D solid may have a fill that is never apparent, even when rendering (when the texture is shown instead), and it can be specified to have no fill at all. Actually I think the option of having an unfilled 3D object is nearly more trouble than it's worth. I'd say It's one of the greatest causes of models not rendering properly - as evidenced by discussions in this forum - I'm sure even the most experienced users have been caught out from time to time... In any case fill options have no influence on selecting and dragging in the current version

In Amy's post she referred to objects having a texture and a hatch. It doesn't make sense to say 2D objects have a texture, nor 3D having a hatch, which is why I asked for clarification. I had assumed we were talking about 3D up to that point, not 2D as Jan15 had assumed.

Jan15 also assumed I was talking about 2D objects because we were discussing the 2D selection tool, however I nearly always use the 2D selection tool for moving and dragging my 3D objects, because I prefer to model only in standard orthographic views. Hence I was refering to 3D objects, not 2D. I missed Jan15's reference to rectangles, as I was already thinking about 2D, just as she might have missed my reference to solids (meaning 3D).

Well, what a mess! I hope that's cleared it up, but even more that the merit of some of the suggestion for changing selection and dragging hasn't entirely been obscured.

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Jan15's suggestion that shaded and unshaded polygon renders should be selectable...
I didn't suggest that. I only said it worked that way up to version 10, and only because Jeff surprised me by saying it doesn't work that way any more. I have no opinion on whether they should be selectable. I've never done a 3D project in VectorWorks.

To return to the discussion we were having before all that confusion:

I brought up the subject of selecting 2D objects by filled area because it would complicate your idea of always dragging the existing selection set rather than interpreting the click as a selection of an overlying object. Selecting 2D surfaces by their fill is definitely useful. But 2D is being phased out, and the fact that VW no longer selects by visible surface in 3D suggests that they're already moving toward your idea.

Losing the ability to select 2D surfaces wouldn't be the end of the world, and wouldn't be any worse than the current problem of inadvertently changing to an overlying object. But the current problem only comes up occasionally (at least in 2D), and so I think a momentary key to turn off selection/deselection would be enough. It would fit in nicely with the current set of momentary keys that modify the 2D Select tool. It would also make it possible to move and copy by remote vector without changing out of the 2D Select tool, a very elegant and VW-like way of doing that.

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Yes, such a tool would be useful and surely would be easy to implement, but I've just been thinking of another solution, and it could be even simpler:

Another mode would be added to the select tool that brings any selected object to the top of the stack. This means that instead of the most recently created object remaining in front, it will remain in front until another object is selected/modified. I think this makes sense with workflow, because often the object that you've modified is the one you will want to return to to re-modify. This will of course solve the whole issue of being able to drag a selected object that is behind, because it comes to the front once it is selected.

Now, it may not work for some situations, especially in 2D where stacking order affects the look of filled 2D objects. However stacking order in 3D is irrelevant in terms of look of renders. In fact part of the problem in 3D is that even in wirefame, unless line attributes differ, it is impossible to tell just from looking at objects which is in front.

So I can imagine I would use the select tool in the "bring seleced object to front" mode as a default, especially as I'm manually bringing selected objects to front much of the time anyway.

I reckon it could work. What do you think?

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"may not work" for 2D is putting it mildly. We really count on 2D filled surface objects staying where they are in the stack order. Having things come to the front any time you click on them would be a disaster -- much worse than occasionally selecting an overlying object by mistake. But if they're phasing out 2D drawing I guess it doesn't matter.

I don't understand why stack order is even a concept in 3D. In Sketchup3D you see the thing that's closest to you, as in the real 3D world. You don't see the thing that was drawn most recently. When you click on a point, you select the closest thing at that point, not something farther away that was drawn later or moved up in the stack.

And what about being able to move objects by remote vector without changing out of the 2D Select tool? You didn't like that part?

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2D - well I guess that shows how much my focus is on working with 3D. But maybe the idea is still valid for 3D use.

Stacking order. It's a common concept in other applications I have used. I haven't used Sketchup so I don't know about it. But in wireframe it can be impossible to tell what is nearer, just as what is in front of the stack. What happens in Sketchup if you see 2 objects - one behind the other? If you select an edge that appears to coincide - based on the view you are in - then you select the nearest object right? But what happens if you want to select the object behind - then you have to change the default selection order somehow - it seems much the same thing. What happens with two objects that occupy the same space - which gets selected? Seems to me there's got to be a stacking order logic somewhere. Anyway I understand Sketchup is not as powerful as VW, so maybe it's not the best example.

Remote Vector Move. Well I guess it would be OK, but I've never felt the need for it. Where I've had to used a vector move tool in other applications I found it more cumbersome than VW. There does seem to be a lot of call for it in the forum, especially from ACad users, so it would not doubt be popular and it is an elegant way of having one modifcation that solves two problems.

Maybe we should ask for both - your modifier key, and my original "drag the selected object" mode. Maybe thow in the "keep selected object in front" mode for 3D as well. (this is like what Rhino does, by the way). I would think they're all compatible improvements. Then we'd both be happy!

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Sketchup is a well thought out intelligent response to real world needs. VW has to deal with a plethora of legacy issues and old habits by users. I am sure if they started again VW would be more like SketchUP and less like...

that's wright. I recently became to understand how you can use the powerfull 3D tools of VW, and it is much like SketchUp, but more advanced and better. The even became much much better in version 12.

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Where I've had to used a vector move tool in other applications I found it more cumbersome than VW.
Of course! Because you have to use a different tool for moving! And then change back to the Select tool to pick the next object. And then back to the move tool again. And back and forth. You usually have to move a lot of things at once. Design never affects just one thing. And with all that back and forth, you miss VW's unique grab'n'go system of moving things with the Select tool. Even Sketchup doesn't have that.

So I'm saying: what if the normal VW grab'n'go drag-move had an option where the first click point doesn't have to be on the selected object? Wouldn't that be nice? You wouldn't need it a lot, but there are times when it would be very convenient. The alternate selection mode that you get when you hold down the Shift key is the same way. You don't need that very often, either, but it's nice to know it's there.

And the reason the first click point wouldn't have to be on the selected object is because selection is suppressed for as long as you hold down a certain key, let's say the Alt key. And if selection is suppressed, it's not going to look for the first object in the stack order at that point, so holding down that key also solves the original problem that prompted this thread and many others.

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Yes it would be nice, and as I've said I would welcome it, but at the risk of repeating myself, it would not be my preferred option. I think that the discussion has unearthed some fundamental differences of where we're coming from on this, and that's fine - it's reflective of the variety of the VW user base.

You said that you've never done a project in 3D. All of my projects are in 3D and start as 3D, practically the only 2D is annotation. In 2D, at least with filled objects you can tell what object is in front, it will therefore be obvious when you need to use your selection suppresion mode. In my work if I drag an edge it might typically move one of half a dozen objects- and there is often no way to tell which one until I've already dragged it - Murphy's law dictates it's always the wrong one.

You envision a tool that "you wouldn't need a lot". I'd prefer something that I would use all the time, even as a default. You have emphasised the advantage of VW's select and drag and combination yet the option you propose suspends this multifunctional arrangement, so it is really not going to be used in this mode by default.

I believe the "drag selected object" alternative I've proposed would be used in this way because it fits logically with the rest of VW - operations affect the selected object. You see a selected object, you drag it, the selected object moves. If you go to rotate a selected object for example, it isn't the front object that moves instead!

I don't think this proposal it's incompatible with the current select/drag operation as you fear. Select/drag where there is no prior selection or common edge would work exactly the same as it does now. Where there is a common edge and a prior selection it would only take another click to change the selection or a deselect to select/drag the front object

But your vector move function would have enough support to warrant it anyway, so as I've said before there is an argument for having both new modes. And either would be better than nothing.

However, the point is does the admin even recognize that the selection function could be improved? I know we never get told about what's in the next version, but are we just wasting time (and boring the rest of the forum) talking about it?

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I'm going to jump in here, even if I know I don't understand everything discussed here. I will put this as simply as possible:

I find it annoying to select an object (or carefully select many), go to a "cross-hairs point" on one of the selected objects to move it, and then drag only to watch VW decide I wanted to select an overlapping object instead of move the selected objects for which I clearly had a cross-hairs for. Does this make sense? I don't understand any reason for it to act this way.

Edit:

After some contemplation, I see why it is doing what it is. The crosshair is in fact for the frontmost object and not the selected object like I would like to assume. So in that way things can be grabbed quickly and regardless of other selections (they are just de-selected).

I propose that a selected object trump a object in front of it for selection or dragging. It's one of those things that if implemented nobody would ever notice, except I wouldn't be cursing when the "wrong" object gets dragged all the time.

Edited by Jhaceun
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at the risk of stating the Obvious -

I have gotten a bit more comfortable and sometimes better results from using the 'Ctrl + arrow' or the 'Shift + arrow' combinations to move selected objects. after I set the distance options in the preferance, or wherever the heck I found them....

Plus the 'select scaling' mode hasta be off...

my 1 cent

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I propose that a selected object trump a object in front of it for selection or dragging.
That was David's suggestion, too. His first suggestion, that is. And of course it's a great idea, but how do you make it work without messing up something else?

You wouldn't want the Select tool to refuse to select anything new when something else is already selected, would you? People would notice that real fast. Having to deselect all, by clicking on a blank spot, before you could grab a new object and drag it -- that would be a nuisance.

So I suggested, in response to David, that it could only work if the Select tool first checks to see whether there's any selected object at the click-down point, and, if there is, assume that's the object you meant. And if there isn't any selected object there, then it could check to see if there's an unselected object at that point. Is that what you were thinking of? Again, it seems like a good idea, and they should have done it that way in the beginning.

But, as I pointed out before, there would be a problem if there happened to be a selected object at the click-down point but hidden behind a solid-filled 2D surface that you want to move. You'd click on that solid-filled surface to try to grab it and move it, but you'd end up moving the hidden object instead. You'd be just as surprised as you are now about accidentally selecting an overlying object.

The problem is that the program can't read your mind and do whatever you're thinking. What you're thinking in this case is "stop doing that selection thing, and just do your drag-move trick with the objects already selected". So I suggested that pressing down the Alt key should temporarily turn off all selection activities (just as the Shift key now turns off some of them). That would allow you to move the selected object(s) without making any unintended changes to the selection set.

And, as it happens, it would also allow you to drag-move an object without starting the drag at some point on the object. If an object is a certain distance and angle away from point A, and now you want it, or a copy of it, to be the same distance and angle away from point B, it would be nice to be able to drag-move it by clicking at A and then B. But you can't do that because A isn't on the object, and so clicking at point A would deselect the object. But if you could turn off all selection activity by holding down the Alt key, as I suggested, then it would be possible.

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Very well put. I was thinking as you thought, that if an object is selected already, that object will act as if it were the top most object (even though it isn't).

Lets think about one object selected under another one... If they are both selected, no problem - we go back to selecting the one on top. If only the bottom one is selected and not the top - I think it would be perfectly intuitive for that one to remain selected and dragged. It is in essence my problem with how it works. Maybe I don't quite see that point yet.

I absolutely love the idea of having the ability to do a move by displacement - I scratch my head wondering why it's not an option. So yes, I also agree with the Alt fix and would love to see it.

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If only the bottom one is selected and not the top - I think it would be perfectly intuitive for that one to remain selected and dragged.
Since the top (unselected) one is solid-filled, you might not even know the bottom one is there (depending on how big the two objects are and how far you're zoomed in). You could end up moving something you don't see, and wondering why the thing you do see isn't moving.
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there would be a problem if there happened to be a selected object at the click-down point but hidden behind a solid-filled 2D surface that you want to move. You'd click on that solid-filled surface to try to grab it and move it, but you'd end up moving the hidden object instead. You'd be just as surprised as you are now about accidentally selecting an overlying object.

I can's see why you'd be surprised. After all, if an object is selected, it's selected because you specifically selected it, right? (If it's there because of copying etc it will be in front instead). So if you you understand you are using the "selected object moves" mode and you know the object is selected, especially because its handles are now clearly visible, then surely you won't be surprised if it moves! Even if it's behind something else - in fact that is the whole point!

OK, maybe the selection was accidental, or you've forgotton what what you did because you went to get a coffee or something, or because of the scale of the object handles are indicating its selection are off screen, then perhaps the edges of selected objects that are behind filled objects could be made to somehow ghost through to give an additional clue. But I really think the way the handles currently appear through the front object are should usually be enough.

Overall I don't share your concern because I am so used to working with 3D where you can't select a surface anyway, that I automatically dont' try to select a 2D surface, only edges and points. And as I've said I don't find moving a 2D object by it's surface useful - it's generally too vague, so I find the behaviour of surface selection annoying if anything.

If I'm missing something here about 2D use, then maybe we just agree that the method is more suitable for 3D. If it's an optional mode then you don't have to use it anyway. Or maybe the mode is constrained to 3D objects. It would still be great to have especially as I maintain the whole selection issue is more of a problem in 3D work.

By the way, Rhino gives you a drop-down menu as you click on an edge, and highlights each object that that edge could belong to as you scroll through it. I'm not asking for that much.

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This discussion is an excellent expose on the difficulties of software design. I've been following it from the beginning and will continue to do so.

Personally I work mostly in 2d, and find that if I'm dragging an object from one place to another I'm most often grabbing by a handle anyway, in order to snap to something else. If I'm moving a set distance I input to the OIP. If I'm moving 'by eye' I use arrows.

More modes for the 2d selection tool would be good. I use vectormove constantly.

More modes the merrier! To a point...and then we start seeing complaints about having to tap the U key too many times. Taken to a ridiculous extreme we could have one tool called Draw, with 150 modes.

Charles

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Actually, the problem with selected objects that underlie a filled 2D surface object isn't only when dragging the surface object. It would also be a problem when you're just trying to select it. Selection happens as soon as you click down, before VW knows whether you're planning to drag. (EDIT: emphasis added)

In 2D work we commonly click on a fill area to select the object, because it's easier. It's a larger target, for one thing. And if we clicked on an edge we might get an overlying object instead!

So, with David's proposed change to the 2D Reshape tool, sometimes we'd click on a surface and nothing would happen. And then we'd think, "What's wrong?" And then, "Oh, right, because that other thing behind it was already selected. I have to click somewhere else, or deselect everything first."

As I said before, it wouldn't be the end of the world, and it wouldn't be any worse than the present situation. And if it's just another mode of the 2D Select tool, we could ignore it. But then people who don't want to work that way would still have the old problem of inadvertently selecting overlying objects. Or would have to keep changing modes, like with that infernal 2D Reshape tool.

Edited by jan15
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