User Defined Gray Layer

[PeterT]

We desprately need the ability to set the color of a single layer to a user defined shade of gray. We have been using a work-around in our office since MiniCad 4+ to get our working drawings to look the way we want.

The gray layer by Layer Options, or by the Layer Visibility setting is not useable unless the level of grayness can be set by the user. Every printer prints grays differently (Epson vs HP, etc.). Every printer driver prints grays differently (Raster vs PostScript, etc.). Even the type of paper used will affect the shade of gray on output.

I have seen may postings on this techboard requesting user control over the shade of gray. For us, and for many other posts that I have read, the gray level arbitrararily set by Nemetschek is too light to use.

Color by class does not work since it does not work on symbol instances. A gray wall with black windows and doors does not work for us. We need everything gray.

Layer opacity is not an option for many people and is not for us as we do not use quartz imaging for other reasons.

A Viewport itself can be colored gray, but the "contents" of a viewport can not be colored separately.

Using Layer Colors is the closest thing there is, but it is not so great, as we would like to use color on other layers than our gray layer. Toggling this on and off does not allow us to see the grayed layer and a colored layer at the same time.

If we could use a layer color on a single layer, that would be ideal, if we could set the level of a gray layer, that would also be great, If we could set the color of a Layer Link, that would work, if we had an Advanced ViewPort Option to set the color of what is in the ViewPort, that would work. There ar many different ways this could be implemented, pick one.

All we want, is to be able to display the contents of a single entire layer at a color chosen by the user. This is ESSENTIAL for framing plan backgrounds among other things.

I cannot believe, that in a software as sophisticated and customizable as VectorWorks 12.5 that this feture has not been implemented, and that there is no way that it can be implemented.

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Color by class does not work since it does not work on symbol instances. A gray wall with black windows and doors does not work for us. We need everything gray.

If you make your symbols with classes, then it will work!

[P Retondo]

Peter, your desire to control the "standard" gray is a good idea. Short of being able to do that, since it is not now possible, you can resort to the following procedure. It's tedious, but can be replicated once done: create an overlapping viewport. In that viewport, with the desired layers visible, override all the visible class pen colors with the gray you desire. It's tedious because you have to edit classes individually. If you have someone who can create Vector Scripts, I would think this chore could be automated.

[Jonathan Pickup]

sorry, i should have jumped in earlier... i wrote a blog on this. I follow Pete R?s advice and use class over-rides in viewports of give me the effect that you want.

You have to edit each class,, but you can choose several classes at the same time and change them together..

http://web.mac.com/jpickup1/iWeb/Site/archoncad/archoncad.html

oh yes, I also made a podcast to show you how to do it.

http://web.mac.com/jpickup1/iWeb/Site/podcasts/podcasts.html

[P Retondo]

Jonathan, didn't know you could edit attributes for multiple classes at once. Brilliant! Thanks, this makes it a piece of cake.

[PeterT]

Thanks for the responses, at least. But I find the use of classes for what I am trying to do less than efficient. But maybe I am missing something.

I will explain for one thing, that we set up our drawings very simply and have never used classes for what we do. We have never needed to break up all the various items in our drawings into tedious lists of classes. I am not saying that I cannot restructure the system we have been using sucessfully for may years to take advantage of classes, but as this is a wish list, I was just putting in a wish to have better contol over the color of a LAYER.

Now, as Pete Retondo said, "since it is not now possible", I am looking into other ways to achieve my goal. If classes are the answer, I am willing to take a shot at it. So here is what I am not getting.

I have a layer call Base Plan. I want everything on this layer to turn gray for some sheets, but to disply black on other sheets. I would like this change of color to occur when I choose the Sheet Layer, or when I choose a Saved View of the Sheet Layer.

In the Base Plan layer, lets say I have a basic floor plan drawn with the wall tool, with window and door symbols or plug-ins inserted in the walls, and other symbols such as sinks, tubs, showers, toilets, etc. placed around the plan. I have this plan displayed in a Viewport on a sheet layer called "Floor Plan Sheet".

Currently the walls are in the none class and the window definitions are in the none class and the windows are inserted in the none class. It would make sense to me that I could in one step, turn the color of the None class to the gray of my choice and my entire plan layer would turn gray. This does not seem to be the case.

For one thing when my wall lines are black, I want solid gray fill, when my wall lines are gray, I want solid white fill. My wall line weights are 17 Mil, my symbol line weights are 7 mil or 9 Mil.

If I edit the None class in the Organization dialog, and if I set the fill to white and the line to gray, nothing happens, unless I check the " Use at creation" box, but if I do that, and then say yes to the "Use class attributes" dialog, it changes ALL my attributes to something I do not want. Not only that, but it still does not change the color of the symbols.

Now I realize I could have better control over the attributes such as lineweights if I put all these items in separate classes, but this seems to be a one way street. Once you change the class attributes, you cannot switch them back without individually editing each item.

O.K. so maybe I must forget having the colors of my choice on design layers while I am drafting my plans and will have to settle for only have the colors on the sheet layers when I print the plan. So lets look at that.

On my Floor Plan Sheet layer, if I now select the Viewport which displays my Base Plan, click the Classes button on the OIP, and edit the None class, and turn the line color to gray, and exit the dialog, nothing happens, my lines are still black.

Now maybe this is because I was mucking around in the classes dialog earlier, but this drives me crazy. I know I did this same thing earlier, and the walls turned gray, but now they are not. And even before, the symbols would not turn gray.

It appears that the viewport class overrides only work it the "Use class attributes" box is checked for that class in the organization dialog, is that correct?

And if I have a symbol that contains more than one lineweight, and that symbol is all in one class, if I use class attributes I will be limited to one lineweight, is that correct?

Although I am an experienced VectorWorks user, I have never really used classes. Using classes seems to enter into a complexity I am not sure I want in my files.

Can anyone enlighten me?

[Dieter @ DWorks]

Thanks for the responses, at least. But I find the use of classes for what I am trying to do less than efficient. But maybe I am missing something.

Where I work, they used to do it also with no classes, but it is more work to get a drawing done because you'll always have something moved that didn't need to move, you'll always have to use 'send back' and 'send forward' etc. also if you'll need to change an attribute like the background color of something, like a certain type of wall, you'll have to spend a lot of time for changing one after another. So you do not use classes, but maybe you are using layers for the same purpose as a class??? like the electrical wiring is on another layer? you could also put it on the same layer as the walls, but in another class. that's basicly the same, but a bit confusing for some people. but whatever you choose, i find classes better because you can set more things with it than with layers.

I will explain for one thing, that we set up our drawings very simply and have never used classes for what we do. We have never needed to break up all the various items in our drawings into tedious lists of classes. I am not saying that I cannot restructure the system we have been using sucessfully for may years to take advantage of classes, but as this is a wish list, I was just putting in a wish to have better contol over the color of a LAYER.

Could you tell us how you're structure is put together then? here we used to work with layer 1/50, layer 1/250, layer titleblock, etc...

It maybe a good way to understand other kinds of drawing, and in every kind of drawing is a good thing and a bad thing.

I have a layer call Base Plan. I want everything on this layer to turn gray for some sheets, but to disply black on other sheets. I would like this change of color to occur when I choose the Sheet Layer, or when I choose a Saved View of the Sheet Layer.

You can set class overrides for each viewport.

In the Base Plan layer, lets say I have a basic floor plan drawn with the wall tool, with window and door symbols or plug-ins inserted in the walls, and other symbols such as sinks, tubs, showers, toilets, etc. placed around the plan. I have this plan displayed in a Viewport on a sheet layer called "Floor Plan Sheet".

Currently the walls are in the none class and the window definitions are in the none class and the windows are inserted in the none class. It would make sense to me that I could in one step, turn the color of the None class to the gray of my choice and my entire plan layer would turn gray. This does not seem to be the case.

There is the problem! when you make symbols, you'll need to set the attributes to 'from class', that's the only way the elements of the symbols will change if you change that class. so that's one more reason for using classes. Because when you make the symbol and just choose a color, it does not matter in which class the symbol is placed, because it will just stay that color. so here you'll need to be carefull and make symbols with classes! it is difficult to make them that way if you already have a lot of them, but it is worth it.

If I edit the None class in the Organization dialog, and if I set the fill to white and the line to gray, nothing happens, unless I check the " Use at creation" box, but if I do that, and then say yes to the "Use class attributes" dialog, it changes ALL my attributes to something I do not want. Not only that, but it still does not change the color of the symbols.

another reason for using many classes. you can quickly change something and you do not need to go over every item and change it, probebly forgetting something.

that of the symbols, you can find above.

Now I realize I could have better control over the attributes such as lineweights if I put all these items in separate classes, but this seems to be a one way street. Once you change the class attributes, you cannot switch them back without individually editing each item.

??? ctrl+z if you change your mind.

On my Floor Plan Sheet layer, if I now select the Viewport which displays my Base Plan, click the Classes button on the OIP, and edit the None class, and turn the line color to gray, and exit the dialog, nothing happens, my lines are still black.

maybe the 'use at creation' button is not checked?

It appears that the viewport class overrides only work it the "Use class attributes" box is checked for that class in the organization dialog, is that correct?

And the answer is: 'YES'

and that's the point, because you can use a class not for the purpose of editing the attributes, but only for grouping items that are like the same. so then you do not need to change the attributes.

And if I have a symbol that contains more than one lineweight, and that symbol is all in one class, if I use class attributes I will be limited to one lineweight, is that correct?

YES! but here is something to look at: you can place the elements of a symbol in a class and put the symbol itself in another class!!, just like i said above, the class the symbol is in would be for grouping purpose.

Although I am an experienced VectorWorks user, I have never really used classes. Using classes seems to enter into a complexity I am not sure I want in my files.

Using classes may seem more complex, but it just makes drawings easier to handle.

f.e. we work for many architects, so we need to draw with a lot of different colors for each of them. like the one want his windows that way, the other that way etc... so we use classes with our own colours. when we then finish the drawing, we change the color of the classes the way the architect want them to be (this is done with a script to work faster but it is not needed, you can do it manually).

f.e. we draw are front view, back view, ... also in 2D and the walls looks like brick, wich is a hatch. when the architect then say, the brick must be red instead of black, we only need to change that class atribute, and the whole drawing is adapted.

there are other examples of using classes, but i hope that you can see more clearly how classes work and how you can benefit from it.

I know that changing your drawing method is really hard and it will certainly take some time, but you can do it in steps, and constantly make it better. here, we are still doing it, and it's getting better and better. so do not be afraid if it does not work out correctly after the first change. Just think it through and go for it.

[Jonathan Pickup]

Classes are as important to using VectorWorks as layers are. They should be used together, so that you don?t use one instead of the other.

This blog might help you to figure out when to use layers and when to use classes...

http://web.mac.com/jpickup1/iWeb/Site/archoncad/CA87CDC3-48F0-485F-8D51-82F3A8B65E87.html

[P Retondo]

Peter, this is real simple and doesn't require you to change your class structure. Set up a Viewport on top of and registered with your "main" viewport. In that VP, activate only the LAYER you want to be your background info, i.e., your base plan. Then, in that VP only, edit ALL the visible classes to change the pen color to gray. If you have only one class, that's okay, just make that one class gray.

And yes, your classes must be checked "Use at Creation" for the over-ride in VPs to work. But whether or not you are using symbols, this method will still make everything gray provided that you edit all the classes indicated as visible in the Viewport. Your individual object line thicknesses should hold (I haven't tested, but when you change an object's lineweight, you change it from "Use class" to a specific value, so editing class attributes should leave that alone).

Then send your VP to the back, and your background will show all objects gray.

The easiest way to create a registered Viewport is to duplicate the existing foreground VP, then edit the layers so that only the background "base plan" layer and all the appropriate classes are visible.

With Jonathan's advice about simultaneous class edits, this should be almost as fast as the method you'd rather have.

[PeterT]

O.K., back on this thread. Thanks for everyone?s input. I have taken some of the ideas given, mixed in my own, and three weeks later, with the help of VectorScript, I have what I want. And I only had to add one class.

It still amazes me though, that this wish for a user definable gray layer could not be built into the program as many other users have also requested. The flexibility of VectorWorks is one of its strongest features and it allows for many workarounds. But a workaround is still a workaround.

For my purpose, the use of a Viewport for getting what I want s not ideal. Maybe this is not common for anyone else, but I like my drawing to look the same when I am working on it as it does when I print it. So having a gray plan when I print it is a good step, but when I go back into a design layer to work on it, it is black, and that does not work too well for me.

The main issue with making a plan gray is that I have both symbols and plugins inserted in the walls. To make these accept color takes a bit of work, whether viewed in a viewport or not.

To make the symbols gray I have created a new class called ?Symbols? and have edited each symbol definition to put its component parts into the Symbols class. I also have to set the attributes of these components to use class colors. As I have to do this to a couple hundred symbols, I have written a script to update all my symbols at once. I have then written a script that will toggle the color of the Symbols class between gray and black.

For the plugins, as they have their color defined in the parameters of the plugin, I have written an external script which accesses these parameters and toggles the color between gray and black.

Next, I have written another script which turns the color of all objects on the Base Plan layer (except symbols or plugins) to gray or black.

Finally, I have written the mother script which combines all the other scripts into one. As I wish to make the color change when I choose my sheet, I have created a saved view of the sheet layer, and have attached my script to the saved view such that when I choose the saved view, it goes to the sheet layer, runs the script, and changes the color of my base plan. But if I then go down to a design layer to work on the drawing the Base Plan layer remains gray, just as I want it.

I am happy to have exactly what I want in the end. But as everything I want to turn grey just happens to be on the same layer, layer control of the color would just be a lot easier for my setup.

Thanks again for helping me brainstorm, but I still hope someday for the original wish to be fufilled.

[islandmon]

PeterT ...

your effort to resolve this deserves some sorta "Be Careful Of What You Wish For" award ...