questions Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I am trying to figure out a way to do cable plots in Vectorworks that will calculate cable length for each run. I have done several plots using many, many lines but this is a very lengthy process. I recently discovered the pipe run tool which makes things a bit easier. I am wondering if anyone has sugestions on how I might modify this tool or creat my own to achive what I am looking for. It also would be nice if I could some how insert spliters into the cable runs and also have it calculate this. Thoughts anyone? Quote Link to comment
markdd Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 What is the pipe run tool? Have I missed something!? Quote Link to comment
Mickey Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 Yes I'm curious about the pipe run tool. I know where you're going with this. Is there a tool that allows a line to be drawn continuously adding up the distance of each segment? Quote Link to comment
Sam Jones Posted May 6, 2007 Share Posted May 6, 2007 How would the tool you are looking for differ from a polyline or polygon tool? Both of these give you the perimeter measurement which is equivalent to the segment length total. Quote Link to comment
Cris with no H Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Interesting tool. It is available in the MEP tool palette, which is available in the Architect or Designer licenses, but maybe not Spotlight (CMIIW). Sam, the one advantage I see immediately is that you can create a report of these runs. With moderately intelligent plotting, you could then spit out a report of how much cable is needed. Frankly, we need a version of this for theatre guys with the ability to add notes to the object, add breakouts at either end, etc. Cris Dopher Quote Link to comment
Sam Jones Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 OK. I'm willing to add the tool to my collection. Think fantasy cable tool. What would the attached record have for fields? What would you want drawn on the plot? I'll see what I can come up with. Initially cable runs with a record attached should not be hard. You would have to fill out the record fields. A separate spreadsheet command could break the run into inventory lengths 100, 75, 50, 25, 10. It would have to take the maximum size, or perhaps all available sizes from some kind of preference record, but it's probably doable. Quote Link to comment
Ericoxer Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 I like this a lot. In some cases though, if one were to already have a circuit plot, would there be a way of calculating the distance (i understand the difficulties that arise once you get into say blackboxes or circuits that arent on a given pipe) from the instrument to the matching circuit? Quote Link to comment
Sam Jones Posted May 28, 2007 Share Posted May 28, 2007 While this could be done, it is not realistic to make a tool that would not be venue specific. Even then, the circuit locations would have to be indiviual objects probably with records attached. Is there in interest is a tool that would use a polyline to plot a cable path and return reports and info on all the paths drawn? I've already developed a cable tool that calculates voltage drop based on the length of a polyline and PIO parameters that include starting voltage and cable awg. Quote Link to comment
Mickey Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Is there in interest in a tool that would use a polyline to plot a cable path and return reports and info on all the paths drawn? I've already developed a cable tool that calculates voltage drop based on the length of a polyline and PIO parameters that include starting voltage and cable awg. Hell Ya! Quote Link to comment
David Ormsby Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 What would the attached record have for fields? What would you want drawn on the plot? I'll see what I can come up with. Initially cable runs with a record attached should not be hard. You would have to fill out the record fields. A separate spreadsheet command could break the run into inventory lengths 100, 75, 50, 25, 10. It would have to take the maximum size, or perhaps all available sizes from some kind of preference record, but it's probably doable. Speaking from the corporate experience, where everything is temporary - Primary fields would include; Multi Name, Length, Part (i.e. A,B etc, for when the run is broken up), Voltage. Secondary fields would be Rack number and Destination (i.e. with multiple racks, Multi X is going to Rack 2 input H - be a nice help when tracking down circuits in the patchbay), Loads, Gauge, Spares. I'd like to see the primary fields appear at the female/truss end, and have all the fields assigned to thier own classes. The length rounding sounds great - as well as the ability to get this into a worksheet. Seems one challenge is to calculate the vertical drop. Once the cable was would it's way around the cieling, at some point it's going to drop to the floor. Perhaps there's a entry in a prefs screen that would add cieling/trim height to all cable runs, so even though it looks like a 50' run in Plan view, the tool would know to add 25' to get the hod to the floor. Perhaps additional fields would support the use of data cable runs for movers and control - Universe, Opto, Console.... Not asking too much, am I? I think it would be the perfect companion for AP and Chain Motor, and I for one will drop coin on it immediately! BTW - Thanks for all your support over the years! Quote Link to comment
MERV Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 When I pull a cable list for a shop order off of a drawing, I want to know cable type(awg), run length, name, voltage(so I know if it powers conventionals or moving lights)and what goes on the ends ie: nothing, edison break-out, L5-20 break-out/in, etc. Voltage drop for me is not an issue since the shop will only provide 2 gauges of socapex cable anyway. Knowing that the mac2K that is 350 feet from the distro will only see 98V(or whatever) a leg is not relevant. I know it will work because I have done it 600 times already. I use custom cable symbols with records attached for much of this already. The majority of my information is done on one master worksheet in VW that I set up with all common cable configurations I use on a weekly basis. As I go through the plot I update the worksheet. Tedious but it works. I also think it would be very difficult to track cable runs when drawn using lines, for someone who has a large number of runs on a truss. I may have 20-30 runs coming off of the end of a truss, and that would be tedious to maintain. If you come up with something you think might work, I would gladly contribute financially if it cuts down on the massive number of hours I spend converting LD dreams into Master Electrician reality!. Quote Link to comment
chstech Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 Sam, is this still a work in progress? i do not see anything on your website. All the best, Andy Quote Link to comment
eskramer Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Sam - Please post on stagecraft when this is done. This will save lots of time Eddie Quote Link to comment
DianaK Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 -Cable type as described in the posting i'm responding to with voltage and all -breakin tail type -origin label for each break in tail (like circuit number but allowing letters as well as numbers) which defaults to spare when not filled in -destination for each tail (multi A) which defaults to the multi it drops on like when you drop a unit on a position but you can still change it if you want -origin label for each regular cable or multi (ie touring rack X ckts 1-6) -number of lines per run (6 circuit multi versus other number of circuits--so if you have to chose bundles versus multi late in the prep based on shop availability it is an easy transition) -destination label for each regular cable or multi (ie FOH L Lekos) -origin for each break out (multi A) which defaults to the multi it drops on -destination of each tail which defaults to spare when not filled in -fields for break outs for tail length so that if you know you have a long tail or a staggered tail you can determine your small jumpers needed if you want to get into that much detail -the ability to swap tails instead of automatically attaching them to a run is vital for when you have soco ins and connections so each tail should default to the cable run it is dropped on but you can change it -breakouts tail type --pretty much all of this can go in the object info box -there should be a function to make these connections autofill the light info (execute function, click connection end, click unit= then the unit has that circuit number in its data ready to go, like when "manual" auto numbering) -the ability to do a fast count like when you get a count in an automated legend, compact so it fits nicely in a notes box, (with spare counts by location option) -you should be able to place a mark at a point in your poly-line like a locus called "vertical cable point" or something that macros a 3D drop (-Z) or rise (+z) so the additional length is calculated in and those of us who use 3D can rotate the view and see that it works or fix it. -these must be colorable by class or layer and not be relegated to grey or something so different systems or cable types can be differentiated easily and perhaps the ability to run an auto generating key for this would be vital too -the previously described rounded-up report would be great! it must differentiate by type, length and breakouts must be counted by tail type thanks!! This would be the best addition since truss. Quote Link to comment
Charles Coes Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 It would also be great to have the option for us audio folks who try to beat vectorworks into doing its thing for us to include: audio connectors, options in the line voltage for text (mic, line, speaker, cobranet etc.) the ability to define the number of pairs in a mult (make it capable of having 56 pair mult for us) include the option for custom connectors include breakouts that can connect to other lines (IE a mult head that goes out to a 25' cable) this would a be a great thing for us Thanks. Quote Link to comment
Sam Jones Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 This is a long post sent to both the Stagecraft list and the VW Spotlight Tech Board, in response to a discussion about a VW Cable Tool. (It doesn't exist yet). From the VW SpotLight Board. 07/04/07 04:38 PM Re: Cable Plots [Re: MERV] chstech Sam, is this still a work in progress? i do not see anything on your website. All the best, Andy #82101 - Yesterday at 09:30 PM Re: Cable Plots [Re: chstech] eskramer Sam - Please post on stagecraft when this is done. This will save lots of time Eddie I currently have a 2D cable tool that I implemented after talking with a film electrician about power feeds. It's a path tool that has you draw a polyline and provides the following fields and calculations. 1 - a pop up menu from which to specify the AWG size of the cable (4/0, 2/0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16) 2 - a pop up ment from which to specify voltage (110, 115, 120, 208, 220, other) 3 - a text field to specify the "other" voltage choice 4 - a text field to specify the maximum amperage for cable run 5 - a text field to specify number of conductors (usually 1 but more can be specified, which will effect voltage drop calculations. 6 - a display of the CM value for the AWG specified. 7 - a text field to specify the vertical distance that needs to be taken into account to calculate the cable run length. 8 - a display of the length of the cable run (the perimeter of the polyline + vertical distance field. 9 - a display of the voltage drop in volts for that length and size of cable. 10 - a display of the percentage of drop from the supplied voltage. 11 - a display of the voltage delivered to the end of the run. 12 - a field to specify a label for the cable. This label will be displayed at both ends of the polyline so that you can tell which end of the polyline goes to which other end. There are control points on each of the label text fields so that they can be moved. 13 - pop up menu to specify the text size of the labels. 14 - a check box to determine if you want the labels displayed or not. The cable object will recalculate its displays based on what you enter and change in the OI palette. I haven't posted this with any of my tools or separately on my web site, because at this point the path cannot be edited with the 2D reshape tool. You have to redraw the path if you want to change it. I hope to fix this soon. This was thought to be a tool primarily for feeder cable. (I know, how how many #16 AWG feeder cables have you seen?) However, it is mildly helpful if you want to see how badly you are taking it on the chin with those long extention cord runs. The tool will probably never be a 3D tool. It is way too much trouble to draw in 3D paths and even more trouble to edit them. All you really need to know is the relative elevations of your positions and obstacles (door jams) and their number and fill in the vertical distance field. If you want to use it, as is, let me know. From the discusssion on the VW Spotlight Tech board some have expressed the desire to draw cables in a manner that would allow them to take the shop orders of the drawing. I will address specific feature and record field requests below in response to , but first a word of caution. First, it will be extraordinarily rare for a designer to put that kind of detail into a drawing. (A cold day in hell might be a good description.) So, it will be left to the electricians who use VW to add this kind of detail to the drawing. The more you want to pull off a drawing, the more you have to put in it. If we provide tools to allow for creation of such detail in the drawing, there will that many more things to enter and draw, and, therefor, that many more things to forget or create errors with. An argument can be made that putting much of the information that has been requested in the drawing would not be any faster than editing that information in an Excel spreadsheet. There are differences of course, but finding those differences and optimizing which data and how that data gets entered (automated?) is the trick. How many production electricians are using VW to figure out their shop orders? Some? Certainly. Many? Probably not. Michael Creason creates incredibly detailed drawings with records attached to almost everything very little of the data is entered in an automated fashion. I really envy people who are that compulsive. They make fabulous electricians, programmers, and ALDs. If there was a good set of "cabling tools," perhaps more would be done. It also seems clear that a "set" of cabling tools would be the most efficient way to address different functions, e.g. a power feed tool, a multi cable tool, a portable cable and or jumper tool, control cable tool, and tools for audio cable. I am interested in trying to create these tools, but there is way too much on my plate right now, so the first version certainly won't be around for LDI, and probably not before the end of the year. Below is a discussion and some questions about the suggestions and features Diane Kesselschmidt mentioned in her post. On Jul 6, 2007, at 6:32 AM, Diana Kesselschmidt wrote: ... -breakin tail type Would you plan on typing this in, or should there be a default? -origin label for each break in tail (like circuit number but allowing letters as well as numbers) which defaults to spare when not filled in Are you really planning on patching from the drawing? Real question? -destination for each tail (multi A) which defaults to the multi it drops on like when you drop a unit on a position but you can still change it if you want and -origin for each break out (multi A) which defaults to the multi it drops on I doubt that there would be separate drawing entities for each tail, just fields in the OI palette. This would mean no dropping and therefore no defaults. -origin label for each regular cable or multi (ie touring rack X ckts 1-6) Which label goes on which end is a reasonable question. At first glance you might think that the position label would go at the position end of the multi and rack label at the rack, BUT. When you're looking at the end of the multi on the drawing you know its end is at a particular position, because that is where it is drawn to. You might want the rack number at the position and the position label at the rack, so you don't have to trace the line on the drawing. Essentially the labels indicate where a multi came from. If these fields are primarily intended for a spreadsheet or other listing then the reverse might be true. -number of lines per run (6 circuit multi versus other number of circuits--so if you have to chose bundles versus multi late in the prep based on shop availability it is an easy transition) I'm not clear on the functional difference between a bundle and a multi. One is made up of separate runs of SO cable. Would you need to know this so you can count those runs? -destination label for each regular cable or multi (ie FOH L Lekos) This makes sense as a field in the OI paletted for display in worksheets or lists, but why would you label the destination on the drawing? The cable ends at its destination on the drawing. The labels will take up some rapidly decreasing real estate on the drawing. -destination of each tail which defaults to spare when not filled in This should probably be a circuit number either a number or A1, A2, etc. -fields for break outs for tail length so that if you know you have a long tail or a staggered tail you can determine your small jumpers needed if you want to get into that much detail I would probably make this a single field that specifies length or "staggered." You would have to know your staggered lengths. -the ability to swap tails instead of automatically attaching them to a run is vital for when you have soco ins and connections so each tail should default to the cable run it is dropped on but you can change it -breakouts tail type --pretty much all of this can go in the object info box Yep, each multi gets a field for multi type (veam or soco [are there others], a field for break in (has it or not), and a field for break out. How to handle daisy chaining multis is unclear to me. -there should be a function to make these connections autofill the light info (execute function, click connection end, click unit= then the unit has that circuit number in its data ready to go, like when "manual" auto numbering) Not going to bother implementing this. Look at your LW paperwork. -the ability to do a fast count like when you get a count in an automated legend, compact so it fits nicely in a notes box, (with spare counts by location option) Counts of what? The counts could be put in a worksheet or text fields could be rearranged and resized. There is no way to know what qualifies as "compact" for each drawing let alone each electrician. -you should be able to place a mark at a point in your poly-line like a locus called "vertical cable point" or something that macros a 3D drop (-Z) or rise (+z) so the additional length is calculated in and those of us who use 3D can rotate the view and see that it works or fix it. A field for vertical rise or fall, certainly. An actual 3D object? I'm not going to bother. I tried to edit a 3D polyline once, for the cable tool described above. It's painful, and for me not worth the effort for the info I got out of it. -these must be colorable by class or layer and not be relegated to grey or something so different systems or cable types can be differentiated easily and perhaps the ability to run an auto generating key for this would be vital too This would mean not using symbols or only coloring by layer color, all of which is probably doable. -the previously described rounded-up report would be great! it must differentiate by type, length and breakouts must be counted by tail type In the beginning, I think the tool would just break a cable run into lengths drawn from a list of available multi lengths and portable SO cable lengths. Would such a tool be used by more than a few? Is it enough better than just reading the perimeter field of a polyline? Thanks for bothering to read this. Sam Samuel L. Jones Developer of: AutoPlotVW, AutoPlot Tools for SpotLight, and Chain Hoist Tools. sjones@arts.ucla.edu ============================================================= Quote Link to comment
DianaK Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 i'll do my best to respond to Samuel L. Jones's questions from 7/7 as concisely as possible -breakin tail type: Would you plan on typing this in, or should there be a default? it looks like this would have to be type-in -origin label for each break in tail (like circuit number but allowing letters as well as numbers) which defaults to spare when not filled in Are you really planning on patching from the drawing? Real question? this is an option that would be greatly useful for rep plots, permanent installs, touring shows that use house systems (for the touring part) and small shows so yes. if you're doing rock or a short term event you can just ignore it. if we're looking to improve on what we do in excel i may as well be able to do it all on the plot and skip the excel all together. I've already been doing dimensioned polylines of cable for years. I want more. don't brush off an idea just because it helps an ALD. they have feelings too. they often have to do the shop orders when the show doesn't have an ME yet or needs a fast rough order for bidding. not every scenario is ideal. and who knows, maybe the ME (or the future MEs of this world) like to think spatially and will like the tool too. there has obviously already been a request. why build a tool that only does half of the job? -destination for each tail (multi A) which defaults to the multi it drops on like when you drop a unit on a position but you can still change it if you want -origin for each break out (multi A) which defaults to the multi it drops on I doubt that there would be separate drawing entities for each tail, just fields in the OI palette. This would mean no dropping and therefore no defaults. ok. but where multis break out to, in detail, is just as important for trouble shooting as the truss they go to. these details can tell you the difference between weather you have to use a genie or climb a truss especially if you're using long breakouts. it would mean that one could do all functions on the drawing and export or automatically generate a box like the unit count made for the key rather than working in several different programs. i'm looking for the cable to export a flow chart so that an ME, and ALD or a designer stuck on their own can build a show as close to reality as possible. the biggest reason for tails is so that you can see what tail lengths to spec in advance like long/short/staggered so you order less excess. working in a rental house has taught me that people over order cable (well beyond spare) rather than think it through carefully all the time, and constantly need more shorts to extend badly planned breakouts, or worse, have to send for another truck because they can't store the excess cable during the run of the show. -origin label for each regular cable or multi (ie touring rack X ckts 1-6) Which label goes on which end is a reasonable question. how about making all visible as an optional both ends so that when you're working with one bundle you don't get "tangled" then you uncheck boxes like "display origin at start" "display destination at start" "display origin at end" "display destination at end" so you can decide to show all or none at your convenience but the information is all stored there for the report -number of lines per run (so if you have to chose bundles versus multi late in the prep based on shop availability it is an easy transition) I'm not clear on the functional difference between a bundle and a multi. depending on what you find available in the shop during prep you may be forced to make bundles, especially if you add runs during a busy season. some times a location needs 6 circuits and a spare, or 8 and a spare, or 3 high and 3 low on a pipe. bundles exist when the world doesn't divide evenly into 6. sometimes short bundles even come off of a multi to extend only half of the runs. a multi is pretty much just a bundle of six (commonly) like a multi circuit unit, but packaged nicely. -destination label for each regular cable or multi (ie FOH L Lekos) This makes sense as a field in the OI paletted for display in worksheets or lists, but why would you label the destination on the drawing? The cable ends at its destination on the drawing. The labels will take up some rapidly decreasing real estate on the drawing. it is more about the report/map than the visual. i've fallen in love with the auto count key VW added and it all springs from there. it is the fastest way to see when you're going over budget while working. -destination of each tail which defaults to spare when not filled in This should probably be a circuit number either a number or A1, A2, etc. or if some one prefers to say "SL truss unit 2" -fields for break outs for tail length I would probably make this a single field that specifies length or "staggered." that is great! -breakouts tail type --pretty much all of this can go in the object info box Yep, each multi gets a field for multi type (veam or soco [are there others], a field for break in (has it or not), and a field for break out. How to handle daisy chaining multis is unclear to me. that is why an origin and a destination are great--especially if you can auto link two ends by starting one on another's end so that the fields that can copy do copy--i know i'm asking for a lot but I blame VW for helping me too see what the program can do as it evolved -there should be a function to make these connections autofill the light info (execute function, click connection end, click unit= then the unit has that ckt number in its data ready to go, like when "manual" auto numbering) Not going to bother implementing this. Look at your LW paperwork. OK. that was just a wouldn't-it-be-nice-if... for the VW guys -the ability to do a fast count like when you get a count in an automated legend, compact so it fits nicely in a notes box, (with spare counts by location option) Counts of what? The counts could be put in a worksheet or text fields could be rearranged and resized. There is no way to know what qualifies as "compact" for each drawing let alone each electrician. number of spares ckts on a truss number of ed break outs total etc. -you should be able to place a mark at a point in your poly-line like a locus called "vertical cable point" or something that macros a 3D drop (-Z) or rise (+z) so the additional length is calculated in and those of us who use 3D can rotate the view and see that it works or fix it. A field for vertical rise or fall, certainly. An actual 3D object? I'm not going to bother. I tried to edit a 3D polyline once, for the cable tool described above. It's painful, and for me not worth the effort for the info I got out of it. this is why i think that it is great that you offered to make a plug-in but what i'm looking for is an included VW function. i'm not looking for immediate help. i'm used to the excel and dimensioned polylines. i'm asking for a long term VW solution. this tool needs to be 3d so that another like it can exist in each VW edition--for conduit and plumbing counts in engineering or whatever. I'm interested in evolution, not a band-aid. one reason i rarely use plugins is that if i'm touching up a drawing on another computer or bringing a file to the shop then i'm without my plugin and it stinks. i love your ideas and i see how they work for you but they don't add enough to the kind of work I do. I wouldn't use it. when I draw a plot as an ALD i am still expected to make it pretty at the very least which is not quite ideal with polly lines. When I am expected to make the lightwright and initial shop order I need to do counts of everything as fast as possible and i need to make sure everything is powered as fast and possible and a mapping that out in advance can seriously save prep time and prep time can seriously save hang time. Both prep-in-shop and hang time cost money. I'm glad to brain-storm anything that helps. thank you for bearing with this mess Diana Kesselschmidt Lighting Designer 516-643-3185 fax: 413-513-6115 DianaK.com Quote Link to comment
DianaK Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Oh and that isn't to say I wouldn't love to try your tool. It may save a lot of time and that is always good!!! Quote Link to comment
T_W_Marshall_728 Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Is there any update on this cable plot and the cable tool? If so, where do I go to get it for Spotlight? Quote Link to comment
Sam Jones Posted September 13, 2007 Share Posted September 13, 2007 T W Marshall, There is no update as of yet. Work on this tool has been tabled until my other tools are updated to VW 2008. It is not forgotten, but it is down the road a bit. Sam Quote Link to comment
Chris Gentry Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Is this still being developed? Quote Link to comment
Sam Jones Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 It's still on the list. I have been clobbered by the day job, and the need to do some fixes for earlier versions for VW 11 and 12. I think this tool will start relatively simple and be added to incrementally. This will pose a problem from one version to another, because as the fields in the OI palette change converting old versions of instances becomes problematic. Also, Nemetschek's major upgrade schedule has been lowered to a new major version every 12 months. If they keep that up, it will retard working on new commands. That said, hope to get a useable tool out this summer. Quote Link to comment
DCoffee Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 I would absolutely LOVE a cable tool, and am excited about its prospect!!! I echo all of the "wish items" this tool would be, but ultimately, if I can plot various types of cable, or even sort them on classes, figure the lengths, and have this work with some kind of reporting, I will be ecstatic. Thanks Quote Link to comment
Casey Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Yea, I just purchased AutoPlot and noticed that the icons are there for it, but they don't correspond to anything. I'm not sure I would use it a lot, but it sounds like a nice feature. Quote Link to comment
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