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pedrodus

Graphically insert 2d lines in hybrid objects?

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Hello,

Is there a way to draw lines and then group them with hydrid objects like doors or windows?

For example, how would I create 2d door handle on a hybrid door ( in plan view) and then reproduce that in other walls?

thank you

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The door needs to be a symbol (possibly containing a PIO).

Any 2D-objects are automatically shown only in plan view. If you want door handles also in 3D, you must make hybrid symbols of them, too, and place those in the door symbol definitions.

The "door handle" symbol could actually be a "door hardware specification". Same hardware combination (handle, lock, hinges etc) may be used in otherwise different doors. One might have both solid-core and hollow-core doors, painted, veneered or laminated, of various dimensions and jamb depths, but with same hardware. Thus, a "door" is an assembly of components. But I digress...

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I use the "door" tool, choose all the settings and so on, add hardware and that kind of stuff. The door looks OK in 3D then I change to top/plan view and I don't like the way the door is displayed, it does not have lines I wish it had, and it doesn't show door handles (for exemple). I tweeked around the settings to show leaf, threshold etc... but the things I wan't don't show in plan view. So i draw lines where I wan't stuff to be, but it sucks to do it in all doors...

How do I get around this?

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Pedrodus, it's pretty unusual (at least in the US) to show hardware in 2D plan. You can get the hardware to draw in 2D by adding the 2D information in the Door Hardware section of the default libraries area:

Open up the file [vw folder}/Libraries/Defaults/Door-Hardware/Door Hardware.mcd

and edit the symbols therein to include the 2D data.

What other 2D info would you like to see in doors?

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Right. The NNA door being totally useless in Finland (and, I'd imagine, most of Europe), I have no realised that hardware can be included.

"Adding the 2D information" means that one has to draw the 2D-representation in all symbol definitions.

The request is pretty unusual in my experience, too, but not unreasonable or pointless. Some people may not remember that a door that opens towards/against a wall does not swing the full 90? if the hinge jamb is along the said wall. A door handle that goes through the wall can be a good reminder.

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Petri - it might help others understand the point you are making if you elaborate on why and how the door and window PIO's are of no use to you in Finland, and probably most users in Europe.

If NNA know what your needs are then there may be some possibility that the functionality will be added to the Door and Window PIOs.

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It might. However, a certain Mr Anderson of NNA has told me that he will implement my (or anyone else's, I'd imagine) ideas if he hears of them. If I only implement those in PIOs sold to licenced, genuine VW users in Europe, it will make it a bit more difficult for NNA to profit from stealing other peoples' intellectual property.

Edited by Petri

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I think a properly executed software is a product of a dialog between its users and its developers. Users might say, "I need such-and-such a feature," and developers might respond either by saying, "That's a great idea that would benefit all users," or "You know, that approach might be useful in your market, but it differs from what we know is desired in all these other markets." I'm sure that some of Petri's input would benefit -all- users of VectorWorks, and yes, I would see that they were implemented, and in as integrated a way as possible.

Raw ideas might in the extreme be considered "intellectual property", (and I'm not by any stretch an attorney on these matters,) but raw ideas have very little market value. What has value are implementations of those ideas, and implementations are both protected (by copyright laws) and therefore hard to steal.

Companies and individuals engage in competition of ideas all the times and "borrow" from each other contantly. It's part and parcel of free enterprise (better mousetrap and all that rot).

I've encouraged (and continue to encourage) Petri to share his ideas / needs / bugs with NNA because ultimately any improvements that result from those things will benefit all VectorWorks users.

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I've encouraged (and continue to encourage) Petri to share his ideas / needs / bugs with NNA because ultimately any improvements that result from those things will benefit all VectorWorks users.

And the cheque is in the mail? Hey - we are talking (mostly) about things that have been implemented, programmed, working, used.

Partly they are of course things that only very experienced and talented individuals conceive. The intellectual property is in knowing what designers need & how they work.

You obviously know how McMansion draftsmen think & work - good on you. "Smart-sized company", however, does not necessarily mean that. Or maybe it does.

Anyone doing other than domestic architectural work in the US of A is advised not to buy VectorWorks, as NNA has expertise & interest only in that market. Caveat emptor.

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Hi Petri,

This is a valid point you have.

There are, in my eyes, only two ways to go about it:

1 Don't talk about them and only give or sell to your users.

2 Go to NNA, lift the smallest tip of the vale and see what they might think.

in number 1 you still have the risk they might come up with the idea on their own account.

in number 2 you may have waisted a plane ticket or lifted the vale a notch too far.

It is really a difficult terrain. I have mostly choosen for number 1. I add value to VW I don't talk about, only my customers will benefit.

Some things that are too difficult for me to implement I ask NNA to do on the wish-list.

I don't sell my Plug-ins independently. Are there 3rd party developpers who ever managed to sell a Plug-In and make enough money on it to pay for the hours?

As far as RA stealing your ideas, it is more or less his job. We can only pray NNA has the decency to stay away from readily developped products or at least contact the author of the product. There are already a few examples in VW that makes you wonder why the original developer keeps on pushing his/her product on his/her own site while an almost similar idea is now implemented in VW.

There was probably no contact. Did NNA know about the original product?

It would be great if there was a serious 3rd party section on the NNA website. It should iinclude a guarantee that products listed there will not be used by NNA (or at least not without prior notice) it would mean you could savely advertise your products there.

For me a heads up on their plans, regarding development of ideas that were mine to begin with, would be enough most of the time. It would save me a lot of development and maintenance time. Keep in mind that I never talk about the real stuff, so there is almost no way NNA could know they are fishing in my pond.

Have fun.

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Gerard,

You are probably right - but my problem is that I think VW is an excellent CAD-program with lousy, useless, compulsory add-ons. I don't want people to conclude that the core program is equally useless as the add-ons and content.

Now, I don't sell VW. Nevertheless, I show it to prospective buyers, who might buy my stuff, too. In this, the NNA add-ons & content are a liability and embarrassment.

Why would anyone here buy Architect? The only useful part of it is wall styles - as functionality, that is: the styles supplied are totally useless and even the entire system has serious shortcomings. So, after paying the extra, the users are then able to buy or produce the useful content.

Why would anyone here buy Landmark? The plant tool is useless, few designers do 3D or DTM. Hardscape - OK, maybe, but again only after spending even more money (or time).

I wouldn't buy either.

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Petri, you do know that a number of VS routines are not enabled or not implemented on Fundamentals, you do know. You do.

You know that I have been "fundamentalist" until a short time ago, still am privately. Now the office where I work bought Architect (for me alone, all others still under MicroStation '92).

I'd only recommend Architect to anybody else. If only to access more routines for your scripts.

Indeed is a great increase in effectiveness, even for someone like me, doing only old buildings, thus being completely out of BIM and similar facilities. And it is so because of:

- Viewport sections (save you days)

- Pipette working across documents for VP classes (save you some heavy brain twisting [Robert, how do I get that done with VS? How do you get the Hatches levels?])

- access to Batch printing (save you tons of applescripts, not even considering the pour souls under win, me included, in the office)

- Navigation

- Stairs

- Windows/doors (if only for very un-detailed ones)

I could fill up the board with wish items as to the last 2 at least, but all in all I see that they are improving.

These points FULLY justify buying Architect. Because they save you a huge amount of time.

For me the rest is meaningless, just enjoy trying it out because of the pleasure of exploring VW. Old buildings live in another world and I have my own set of PIOs for dealing with these special issues.

Buying Architect is a good bargain. If you are paid per hour, you should stick to Fundamentals. You earn more.

vsd

Edited by vsd

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Petri, you do know that a number of VS routines are not enabled or not implemented on Fundamentals, you do know. You do.

I do indeed. When the scheme of add-ons was introduced, I for one did not realise that it would eventually lead to a situation where national distributors and 3rd party developers could not localise & expand the "core" program freely.

Of course this is a nice way to kill competition - in Robert's words "this is how Microsoft and Autodesk operate", referring to NNA's predatory tactics.

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Don't tell me. Just around VW 8 Nemetschek Allplan was selling the licences not only at unbelievable prices, but also with some sort of monthly bribe coercion called "support". It was awfully expensive, about 150$ every month. When MC was bought by NNA I left the lists (I had another name). I knew I wouldn't be able to pursue the product any longer, no need to script any further.

And indeed. Architect and the system of modules was borne. Exactly like Allplan.

At least my other fear, Allplan recycling MC's engine and kill the product, didn't come true.

Nemetschek was giving the licences at the universities for free, schooling included. All students would begin with it and, since what people really likes the most is not thinking, stick to it forever. My own partner (german, schooled under Allplan) found the transition to VW like fresh air, after his Allplan years.

That was a clever tactic. I think they still do it.

We in Italy, at the University of Venice, had not even the chairs, think of CAD for free. Might be for this reason that Allplan never got foot there (lack of chairs...)

vsd

Edited by vsd

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I had A huge post but I lost it, oh well I'm not posting it again...

The baseline of it was: I'm not a programmer so I acctually enjoy when my suggestions are implemented.

AND:

Thanks Robert for the door handle tip. I think I can use the same method (editing the door hardware file) to add whatever other lines I feel like.

I don't really know what lines I want right now, but I'm sure vsd could help me with that wink.gif

thanks all

and take it easy

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Glad to help. If you tell me exactly what you need, I could post a little tutorial on vcor. After all it could help others too.

Hoping that tutorials of this kind will be soon made useless by increased PIO functionality.

vsd

P.S.

Taking it easy. It is just a very old story, it will keep on popping up as long as old MC users are around TechBoard. There was a general feeling of betrayal. It is still there.

Resuming this story: from the great feeling of open-source-community, all of a sudden we got a serial number branded on the arm. Down to nameless "user". Only worth the Module we buy.

But so is it now.

Edited by vsd

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Those were the days! We had substantial libraries of "MiniPascal" -routines, unprotected. Some of my VectorScripts still carry acknowledgements & ?-remarks referring to Diehl Graphsoft.

On the CompuServe MiniCAD forum we had contributions & comments from The Man himself!

Where were we? The 2D-representations of door hardware, of course.

For most practical purposes, I'd draw the handle (or whatever) as simply as possible. For impractical purposes, I might have two representations in different classes (generic & detailed). The entire 2D-component might be a group in a class of its own because one does not necessarily want to have any trace of door hardware in a 1:200 floorplan with 500 doors.

One of the uselessness-aspects of NNA's Door object is that, AFAK, it always draws the door leaf as a rectangle. I guess no-one at NNA has ever designed a building bigger than a "house" (ie a single dwelling). If any building at all.

Even a modest university or hospital has thousands of doors. In such projects no-one gives a large rodent's posterior about door leaf thicknesses..

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