VW is Amazing!

[mmoriarty]

Yup, VW is amazing! I'm not a CAD person but I have been using 3d modeling & rendering software for 15 years. I'm designing trade show displays now and need to be able to supply accurate build drawings along with great renderings. I have been able to do the renderings with inexpensive 3d software. One of my favorites is Carrara. I can build a display to precise dimensions and using Photoshop and Illustrator for the textures, I can render the design in high resolution. This sometimes takes a couple of days to do.

Since I now need to supply build drawings with my renderings I decided to get VW. I was thinking I would be able to design, dimension and render all with VW. As far as I'm concerned now, I don't think its very good for any of those things.

Yup, VW is amazing! I have been using it for a few months now and it amazes me every day. They must have put a lot of time and effort into making VW as difficult and convoluted as possible. There is no way that software could be this bad by accident.

I can't understand how anyone could use VW on a regular basis and not go insane. It takes forever to do the simplest thing. And rendering is incredibly slow. Its the 21st century for cryin' out loud. No 3d renderer should take this long for results this bad. The soft shadows are a joke. If you are adding lit fog, area lights (required if you want any kind of decent soft shadows) or any other special lighting effects, you might as well take the rest of the day off 'cause its gonna take a LONG tome to get a rendering of decent resolution.

Yup, VW is amazing!

The 2d tools are worse than any 2d program I have ever seen. Drawing even simple curves is maddening. Didn't these guys ever look at Illustrator? 2d drawing can be simple. Look at the scale tool (Scale from point). The only way to scale symmetrically is to click in the center of the object and drag a corner away at a 45 degree angle. In every other 2d drawing program you can click anywhere in the drawing and drag using a modifier key to scale any selected object proportionally. In VW there is no way to position the corner of a square where you need it then scale it symmetrically from that corner. A simple task in even the most rudimentary 2d vector software. I can't believe how many simple tasks are made into complex ordeals in VW. Even setting up the document or printing something takes going to 3, 4 or even more dialog boxes which are frequently buried in some item under what you would think is a completely unrelated main menu.

Yup, VW is amazing. Working in 3d? Wouldn't it be nice to have a split screen so you have an orthogonal view of each different axis while you are moving things around in 3d? Seems like a pretty simple idea and it makes working in 3d pretty easy. No such luck in VW. How about having an easily rotated perspective view that updates in real time while you are working in another window in orthogonal view so you can see where things are going. No, in VW you have to switch views back and forth. Move a little bit, switch views, move a little bit in that view, switch again. Where is the hide command? Every other software I have used has an easy way to click on an object, use a keyboard command to hide it temporarily, then bring it back with another quick keyboard command.

How about that manual? I got VW Fundamentals and Designer Series (I got the Spotlight module.) The manuals and CD's are a little help but not much. It's tough to write a decent manual for poorly designed software with a near worthless interface.

There is so much wrong with VW it would take me days to come up with a list of the most obvious problems but the biggest problem for me is that as a rendering tool it isn't even mediocre, its absolutely awful.

It looks like I need to do some research and find a better solution than VW. I was told that VW was as like Autocad but a lot cheaper. I guess you get what you pay for. I think I'll have to take a closer look at Autocad & 3D Studio and some other packages. There has to something better than this.

If any of you people who rave about VW read this and need another license, keep checking eBay. I'm going to need to dump this piece of garbage before too long.

I should also post this everywhere I possibly can and maybe prevent some other person from wasting their time and money on this.

[alanmac]

I think if you check with the main NNA site you'll see that they offer a money back within a certain number of days from purchase if you are not happy, so no need to flog it on ebay.

Good luck with Autocad, not a route I would take.

I wouldn't swap but accept, as with all programs, there is room for improvement. The difficulty comes when users want to try to use one programs methodology to operate another.

Also in many cases its just not knowing the program well enough or lack of proper training that many blame the software rather than their lack of knowledge and experience.

I fail to see what you intend to achieve from your rant on this forum. We are hardly likely to suddenly jump up and agree with you, having lifted the veil from our eyes as it were. But if it makes you feel better go ahead.

In my opinion Vectorworks is one of the best programs for undertaking the type of work you describe.

You could also look towards SketchUp for quick modelling and the attractive semi hand drawn rendering style it offers. Although in beta at the moment they have introduced a layout module to the program in Pro Version 6. If you want to go to a higher level with rendering than either SketchUp or VW can offer both will export direct into Artlantis Studio, or in the case of VW, into Cinema 4D.

Have you asked what others in this area of work around you are using?

Alan

Edited January 25, 2007 by alanmac

[altoids]

Couldn't agree more that VW interface is poor, but most CAD programs are. I've used AutoCAD, Vellum, PowerCAD, ArchiCAD, MicroStation and VW and not one of them comes close to Illustrator-like simplicity. Every few years we shop around for a better alternative. Some packages have better interfaces, but do much less. We settled on Vectorworks as the least-bad option, though ArchiCAD's version 10 is a great improvement and it's 3D is very quick.

[P Retondo]

mmoriarity, you sound like me ranting about AutoCAD when I had to pick it up after using VW for a number of years. I got used to it.

[mike m oz]

Transitioning to a new program is always difficult (and sometimes even new versions of the same program). It is only when you have to adujst how you do your work that you realise how ingrained your work habits are. Getting out of your comfort zone can be good though because it makes you think about how you are doing your work.

A bit of time with a new program or version brings 'comfort' again. There is no perfect program, and you will never satisfy everybody. If mmoriaty finds that VW doesn't fit his needs he should just move on and try something else.

Alternatively though mmoriaty could spend some time getting to know how to do the things he wants to do in VectorWorks. The online Video Library would be a good place to start. http://www.nemetschek.net/training/library.php

Edited January 26, 2007 by mike m oz

[jan15]

Yup, VW is amazing!

Well, shucks and gosh. Sorry that yuh didn't like it.

I should also post this everywhere I possibly can and maybe prevent some other person from wasting their time and money on this.

Yup, that's a good plan. You've "been using it for a few months now", so you've probably exceeded the ninety day trial period, but maybe you can get NNA to refund your money anyway by threatening to cripple their sales with a smear campaign.

[Guest]

Hi

You are more than welcome to go to AC - After being a DWG Office manager with AC, I swore that one day when I have my own practice it will not enter even close to any of my workstations. Well I did start my own business and guess what. In the thick of things I bought an AC 2006 package. Old dogs changes hair not their color, ... just thought it will be of great help. Want to know more.... I did not even bother to resell it..... I gave it as a present to a univarsity student as they used it on their campus. I felt sorry for him.

I'm literate in Cadkey, Kubatec, AC14 - AC 2006, Floorplan, Turbocad V9-V12, ArchiCad 6-9.

Out of all the IMSI TurboCad surprised me the most.

Starting the V11 (their best version) currently at $100 it gives you all you ever wants without the BIM's and Hybrid modelling. Check their forum and ask for a few extroadinary people and what they does with that program. And a forum you will die for.

You will like it and they are thoroughly used to your types of rants. It does not bother them actually. The difference is that with them it is the actual case, here not. You will fit in there perfectly.

But just remember that they deliver new versions and keep patching and the bugs never stops. Their management don't believe that the current version must be FULLY PATCHED before releasing the NEXT VERSION. That is part of the sales trick. Buy the "NEW" BUG CORRECTED PREVIOUS VERSION with a tiny wee bit add - ons at a $100 + $x

That is why with the V12 version (A SUPER worse case) a hell of alot regular custumers turned away.

I came to VW and are fully happy. The speed of getting things up and goiing, the ease of usage and a MUST is the understanding of the Class and Layer System. I must admit that VW LACK TOTALLY in introducing NEW COMERS wit a PROPER TRAINING CD in that aspect and THAT ALONE let me in the early stages NEARLY dump VW as just a dead end shot. VW crashing is a minimal and mostly my own fault (Just 6 weeks on VW)but iro of previous experieces with other new packages I can do a hell of alot more.

I did it "right" this time with what VW was willing to supply for a new comer, I read the 2 x manuals, and worked throught their availble 1 x CD (minimum info) you get and the online movie series. Another MISTAKE BY VW - They do not supply a COMPREHENSIVE A-Z TRAINING CD of how this program are fitted together to produce smart ass drawings. For that they want more $$$$. I think if they do supply and just cut back on trying to make money on the available comprehensive CD's, much more people will fit very fast in and the ranting and bad mouthing of NNA product will also be minimized. I think it is a lack of thinking through the tunnel by NNA. They stopped midway in the dark tunnel with their current "free" added 1 x Low and Behold Information CD that you get with a purchase.

But once you are through that lacking of FULL TRAINED SUPPORT it goes and very much smoother than any other package I know of.

You seems to forget that for each CAD package you need to adapt your style to the programmers thinking and that specific programs workflow.

And do get the Renderworks package as well for your work - Saving a penny just adds to your frustration and will cost you hard in $$$$ with AC but after such a rant it is usually better to just fades away ....silently. It is a sign of inabality to adapt and master something new at your doorstep.

CAD is 80% own input, 20% the program.

[mike m oz]

The point that Alan makes about alternative rendering solutions is very valid. You don't have to use RenderWorks. Artlantis and Cinema4D can be used by those needing better rendering capability.

[NigelShaw]

Hi,

I used AC for 6 years before changing to VW. at first i thought VW was a little difficult but soon come to realise that it was because i used to use AC. packages do not work the same and you shouldn't expect them to! i now think that VW is very good and would consider myself converted as it is easier. look at grouping. in AC, you need to go through various stages of naming, selecting, dialog box etc but in VW, select and group. scaling. in AC, you have to select, pick a point, pick another point, pick another point..... in VW, select, pick point and scale. trim. AC has various ways of trimming but you just need to trim so trim. i could go on for hours but i won't rant. i think its is an easy good package to use and lets face it, if you really need a photo finish renderer, then pay for one!

regs,

NS

[Petri]

C'mon, gals & guys! Give'm a break, will'ya! He/she has some very pertinent points. However...

I have been able to do the renderings with inexpensive 3d software.

OK. What's stopping him/her now?

One of my favorites is Carrara. I can build a display to precise dimensions

OK. What's stopping him/her now?

and using Photoshop and Illustrator for the textures, I can render the design in high resolution. This sometimes takes a couple of days to do.

I'm sure it will take a couple of days to do a 3D-rendering with Photoshop, but never mind, who's tallying the hours!

Since I now need to supply build drawings with my renderings I decided to get VW. I was thinking I would be able to design, dimension and render all with VW. As far as I'm concerned now, I don't think its very good for any of those things.

Tell me about it! Especially dimensioning is hopeless in VW! I have absolutely no idea how tens of thousands of buildings get built annually with drawings are produced it.

It takes forever to do the simplest thing.

It does, doesn't it! I mean, to stretch a line you actually need to (i) select it, (ii] ]grab from either end and (iii] move the cursor. (In VW, that should read "curser"! By Jove, it only does 99% of basic drafting, so you curse it every day!)

If you are adding lit fog, area lights (required if you want any kind of decent soft shadows) or any other special lighting effects, you might as well take the rest of the day off 'cause its gonna take a LONG tome to get a rendering of decent resolution.

You're b-dy right, mate! Compared with the fog & shadow rendering of Illustrator, RenderWorks is a dog.

2d drawing can be simple. Look at the scale tool (Scale from point). The only way to scale symmetrically is to click in the center of the object and drag a corner away at a 45 degree angle. In every other 2d drawing program you can click anywhere in the drawing and drag using a modifier key to scale any selected object proportionally.

I learn something new every day. Today, thanks to Dr. Mmoriarty. I guess I have to RTFM of a "2d drawing program" to learn how to scale a compound object in such a way that all geometric relationships stay intact. Dear me, pity the programmers of parametric objects and (in the case of VW's Parametric Constraints): they should only have looked at Illustrator to get the idea.

Whatever: in my 20 years of CAD work, "scaling" is one the least needed functions. Coming to think of it, it could just as well be a relic. When drawing boards and other dinosaurs roamed the Earth, scaling was a big thing. ("Analog", ie raster, scaling is not a bad thing at all - now, just remind me how I can scale objects in Photoshop - your favourite smoke & mirrors rendering program I gather - in the way you describe.)

Wouldn't it be nice to have a split screen so you have an orthogonal view of each different axis while you are moving things around in 3d?

It would indeed.

Where is the hide command? Every other software I have used has an easy way to click on an object, use a keyboard command to hide it temporarily, then bring it back with another quick keyboard command.

So, that's what it was in my first CAD-program in 1987... I was curious about it then. Why would you want to hide an arbitrarily selected object? In any sensible CAD-implementation, objects are classified with one method or the other and you either want to see them or don't.

the biggest problem for me is that as a rendering tool it isn't even mediocre, its absolutely awful.

And with VW you can't use the superior rendering programs Photoshop and Illustrator? You know, the ones that do fog and shadows in an instance. Or are you telling us that even in a couple of days you can't get your stuff to some "inexpensive 3d software"? Shocking...

I was told that VW was as like Autocad

Who on earth has told you that! No, no, no and no! In VW, we do not do drafting with lines and arcs nor do have a command line.

but a lot cheaper.

Dear Doctor - if you thought you would get a drafting program for, what, less than half of the price of AutoCAD, you were wrong. Unfortunately, you got an object-orientated, parametric 3D modeling program with a fairly good database system and pretty good drafting capabilities. So, let's get this straight:

- someone mislead you

- you were shopping for a cheap and cheerful AutoCAD clone for drafting

- you did not do your homework (like getting the evaluation version)

- you NOW want to discontinue using Photoshop (2 days per image) for fog and shadows

so obviously, blatantly, crying-out-loudly, VW is a bad, bad program.

Was it even cheaper?

I guess you get what you pay for. I think I'll have to take a closer look at Autocad & 3D Studio and some other packages. There has to something better than this.

Oh, there is. No-one would dispute that. And whatever you now decide to purchase, there is always something better. And better. And even better.

Cheerio! Please keep us posted on your Pilgrim's Progress. When you find a $100 program that does it all, we will all make the switch.

[russh]

I came to VW from ADT and at first found VW anything but intuitive. Maddeningly so. But if you stick at it and accept that it doesn't work in the same way as what you've been used to then it will become easier. OK, so the help files and manuals are pretty awful, and ADT (and even AutoCAD, gasp!) does some things much better and quicker than VW, but I've found that there's usually a way of getting the result you need. This forum is a gold mine of useful information for beginners. It sounds as if Mr Moriarty has made up his mind without giving VW a fair chance, or making the effort to learn how to use it. Shame.

Edit: I suppose Mr Moriarty could always use IntelliCAD - I belive there is still a free version available.

Edited January 26, 2007 by russh

[islandmon]

Petri ... you are a work of art... LOL ; )

Having been married to this seductive VW Bitch for most of my adult life...

yes, indeed ... "I've grown accustomed to her face "...

VW works for me ... and as far as I'm concerned that's all that really matters.

Perhaps, one morning I shall blissfully awaken to find myself in the arms of a younger CAD whore.

But until then my marriage to VW remains rock solid.

[panthony]

Such eloquent prose has failed to stir a tear of understanding or compassion with your brief encounter where you jilted your second-rate alternative life partner of fifteen years seeking an affiliation with a graphically satisfying superior while in the throws of passionate graphic exchange you found that he?really is a she?and so in your absolute and utter embarrassment with self loathing and disgust admitting you pimped your loyal but faithful fifteen year relationship for an impressive good looking seductive collaborator and found that you really are, after all, attracted to a parallel relationship of aged dimension and data, not able to perform in a firmly true perpendicular association so you?ve laid waste with a bitter spew of unfounded and ignorant grievance to return to that which you left ?alternative technique.

So long decrepit adversary. Return not, as it shall cause me to break wind in your general direction. You have been defeated. Your fiery darts are dull and ineffective, incapable of reaching their target, unable to inflict any pain. My resolve continues with a persuasion of unlimited circumference?unbroken and free to conquer undiscovered creative excellence.

Besides...I had some time to waste before lunch.

[Jim Smith]

I am often impressed by the sagacity & erudition found in this forum; well played! Do we have a retort from the provocateur?