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Anti-Imperial Petition


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I am investigating whether it is worth my money to upgrade from VW 9. For a number of reasons, I probably depend less on NNA's special components than the average user, but viewports would be nice.

I've been told that VW 12 is more metric-friendly than the blatantly imperialistic previous versions, but I can't substantiate the claim. When I launch VW 12, I get good old feet and inches. The wall styles are American. And so on.

I can't find a Preference for simply, with one click, to change the entire behaviour of the progam to be metric. Units, scales, libraries, everything. (In fact, I can't find a way to use the metric wall styles library at all!)

On behalf of the 95% of global population: can we please get the single radio button to make the program to work the way we expect and need it to work. Pretty please, that is.

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you can of course make your own template file, and you can make your own wall styles. The viewports in VectorWorks 12.5 are worth the upgrade. It order to get the most from the viewports you will have to change the way you create your drawings.

For those of you that feel the same, and have my Architect Tutorial Manual, check the CD in the back of the manual. It has a set of metric wall styles that I have made. It also has a layer and class standard that you use (it has the classes for the wall styles).

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It is easy to get metric to stick

the drawing that opens when VW starts is based on the Default drawings

all the properties that are set in that drawing will be used when VW starts or you create a new drawing using Default

after customizing the Default file you save it as a template

replacing the Default.sta in the Templates folder.

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Although the largest single "user group" is probably the US; the rest of the entire world, and the vast majority of VW customers use the Metric system.

It's time Software Vendors (not just NNA) started releasing products for the world market instead of their own domestic market.

Yes; the majority of users can reconfigure their VW to suit the norm instead of the exception, but why should they have to? And don't get me started on those damned US paper sizes in Printer Drivers..... ;-)

This is not US bashing on my part, it's Imperial bashing. I grew up with it, and a sheet of plywood is still an 8X4 to me, but I thought it was a stupid impractical system then and it still is now. That's why Engineers had to give up the yards-feet-inches-fractions debacle and go to "metricated" inches and thous.

It's high time the US gave up the imperial system anyway, then we might not get situations like slamming a $200M International Mars Lander into the rocks because SOMEONE in the U.S. was using feet while everyone else was using metres for measurements. Sheesh! {:-O

Well, I've done up my Nomex suit nice and tight: let the flames commence! :-D

Edited by propstuff
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Nicholas, et al, in grade school (1960's) they told us: "you better learn the metric system because we will be switching to it soon". We learned it and waited. They told us the exact same thing in Junior High, Highschool and College. We're still waiting. IMO the problem is, that our leaders actually think we (the general public) are as dumb as they (the leaders) are, and therefore they think it might cause some sort of societal breakdown if we were actually made to switch. I personally would love to see the US adopt the metric system, but unfortunately it isn't up to me :-(

Edited by CipesDesign
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I think Petri's problem is that because he is looking at the demo version he can't actualy save a metric default Template file. Everytime he restarts the program it is in feet and inches again.

I think Nicholas has hit the nail on the head. The program should ship to the rest of the world as a metric version. Another option would be to have a Vectorworks preference to select the preferred unit system - imperial or metric. This preference would need to 'stick', even on the demo version.

The Training CD's and Manuals produced by Resolve for NNA also need to be metricated. These currently only contain information and exercises in feet and inches. As most non US users have no comprehension of what a foot and an inch are, this makes the CDs and manuals almost useless for them.

There is a need to recognise that 95% of the world is metric and that most of these people only know the metric system. I don't know the numbers but I would guess that the metric users of VW probaby outnumber the imperial users. To ignore us in this way is not good strategic decision making.

Edited by mike m oz
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I don't know the numbers but I would guess that the metric users of VW probaby outnumber the imperial users.

In an interview published in Architosh a while back, Sean indicated that about 30% of customers were US, and about 30% Europe and Asia/Pacific each (and growing).

I.E. %60-70 of customers are Metric users and the proportion is increasing.

cheers

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Whilst they are coming into line with the rest of the world they could also use this as an opportunity get the spelling of the metre measurement in line with the rest of the world as well ;~)

Its a distance of measurement, not something you put money in to park, or read how much gas or electricity you've used.

Alan

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I, too, grind under the weight of the defacto dual system in the United States of Archaia. Everything imported is in metric, while we have to design and build for Imperial masters.

I will vote for the next political entity to promote metric, regardless of other issues, if they intend to complete the long-promised transition. I am sure it is too Old Europe for the current numbnuts.

In fact, I promise to do all I can to make this a central issue of the next American-Archaica political cycle, and after my success, NNA won't have a choice.

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Hi y'all

Up here in Canada we switched to metric some 35 yrs ago. We buy our gas by the litre, our potatoes by the kilo, but most houses are still built by feet and inches. Apparantly its not an easy transition, but it is happening.

Youngsters today just don't understand fractions!

Charles

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Ford, Chevy....Honda or Toyota...

We as designers work in a medium of artistic latitude and we should not get hung up on the system Imerial or Metric. They both will work just fine for whomever it is entrusted.

I will rely on my talents and abilities to overcome my shortcommings and ride above the standards to create excellence in whatever I do....inch by inch or cm by cm.

Pete A.

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Here in Australia - we converted back in the early 70's. It was all over and done with inside 3 years. The construction industry was one of the first things to change. Its not hard to do and the benefits are enormous.

It would not be an issue if a metric version was produced. As I stated above having one single VW preference which once selected set it for ever would be enough.

Edited by mike m oz
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Ford, Chevy....Honda or Toyota...

We as designers work in a medium of artistic latitude and we should not get hung up on the system Imerial or Metric. They both will work just fine for whomever it is entrusted.

I will rely on my talents and abilities to overcome my shortcommings and ride above the standards to create excellence in whatever I do....inch by inch or cm by cm.

Pete A.

Hi Pete,

It's not so much that one system is better than the other -although the metric system obviously is... ;-D

The thing is that the considerable majority of users are "disadvantaged" by the defaults in the software. Here's an example: In the Machine design product there are 11 Metric nut and bolt objects and there are 22 Imperial nut and bolt objects. EG there are 4 types of Imperial wing nuts and 1 type of Metric wing nut.

So; 1/4 (or 0.25 if you prefer) of users get served with much more functionallity because................why?

Likewise if you go to the "Metric" structural members, they're not actually metric objects at all. They're just the same Imperial objects with metric numbers attached to them.

That's not a Metric version.

Some might say that NNA is producing VW for the North American market, and it's the regional distibutors responsibility to customise for their individual region. I don't think that's a valid argument.

NNA (and I'm sure Nemetschek AG) tout VW as a Worldwide product. They should be producing a product for the majority of customers (the rest of the world) first; in exactly the same way as they focus first on their major user base (architecture).

So back to your point Pete; in many situations the 2 systems will not " work just fine for whomever it is entrusted". A 1/4" bolt will not go through a 6mm hole.

Likewise the considerable majority should not be required to "overcome shortcommings and ride above the standards" because the product serves the needs of the minority in "preference"

Ho Hum.......

I've run away at the mouth again...................... ;-)

cheers,

Edited by propstuff
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Exactly, Nicholas!

SURELY all metric system users can change the default values of all imperialistic NNA plug-ins to have real metric steel sections etc, but why should the majority of users waste tens of hours (repeated for every update and upgrade) for menial tasks when the minority can work with software out of the box?

After all, we all pay the same price. Does the US design industry need subsidies from the rest of the world?

We have to pay for tons of totally useless crap. When the add-on packages were introduced, there was an opportunity to establish a "user pays" -system, but that became a system in which many users pay and few users reap the benefits. All VW users are equal, but some are more equal than others...

Regional distributors. Right. A regional distributor cannot use many of the advanced features for programming, unless they sell a premium package to everyone. This premium package contains all the US crap. Paid for, but useless.

Every line you draw, every move you make - the privileged few, the modern Colonialists, will benefit. Worldwide.

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I think the best resolution here is for you to speak to your local distributor.

Some countries use the English version of VW, add a few things unique to their localization, and issue their own flavor of VW. Other countries simply ship out the same thing we ship to our US customers. Other countries completely localize the product and ship out a localized copy of VW.

If you want change in a local version of the product, the best place to start is with your local distributor.

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"English"? Funny.

As pointed out, in Canada we use both the Metric & sometimes the Imperial system. We have some drawings in Metric, some in Imperial.

Each drawinig opens in the system it is designed in. In some cases we will also quote both, old surveys referenced on a site plan will have been measured in feet - with decimals!

FYi Last century, when gas was sold here in gallons - Imperial Gallons, the USA sold gas in: US Gallons (1/5 smaller!). Long tons vs Short (US) tons. Some progress at least when this vanished.

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George, the libraries are no big deal. A demo version that only comes in feet and inches is.

Most of the world don't know what feet and inches are, and just as you have no interest in the metric system they don't have any interest in the imperial system.

I heard all the arguements against metrication when we chose to switch 35 years ago. Ten years later only one in 50 people wanted to go back to the old system. These were mostly older people and poorly educated people people who had never heard of the metric system before the switch. The rest just got on with it.

The Imperial system is no longer taught in our schools and none of my 4 kids have any idea what a foot or an inch is. I am not about to confuse them by trying to explain it to them. I am glad to have left it behind.

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Mike,

I'm not arguing for or against either system. I was responding to Petri's tone. The problem is that there is more than one system in use. The switch to metric would be fine with me. I've used both working in the architectural woodworking industry. Many of our woodworking machines were European, with metric fittings. European style hardware also required learning the 35mm system to use it efficiently. I think some of the resistance in the US is due to the cost of replacing expensive equipment to comply with the metric standard.

I'm sure software vendors would be happy to have only one standard to deal with as well. I doubt that there is some political statement in the missing metric libraries - somebody just screwed up.

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My tone? Well, the tone is caused by the fact that I'm supposed to pay for totally useless features even in order to develop the useful features myself. Eg. VectorScript is crippled in the basic version. (Of course the official line is that it is not crippled; instead, the more expensive versions have an expanded VectorScript.)

Now, if I would "talk to the local distributor" they would in all likelihood tell me that they have raised these issues with NNA numerous times, to no avail.

Political rants? Well, whatever. Perhaps Katie will remind Mr Hannigan about the style of the forum - you know, the "professional and polite" -thing, instead of unprovoked personal attacks towards other VW users. Perhaps Mr Hannigan should consider other forums if he wishes to engage in an exchange of insults.

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Well I just spent an age writing a response that was full of wisdom and insight. :-D

Then lost it all to that %&*&(*$# "Form no longer Valid" bug. }:-(

Any way;..... here's the precis... ;-)

Katie:

This is not an issue of Localisation; it's an issue of Globalisation.

The World (ie the user base of VW) is a Metric world, and the programme should focus on, and default to respect that, not to a minority local (imperial) version. It's really that simple.

cheers

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Nicholas....

Just goes to show you that wisdom and insight are no longer valid ;-).

However...I really believe that this is an issue of globalization (small "g") because we are all in this together. None of us is singled out here as privliged or special.

I will say though that I had the opportunity to use a architectural software program from Findland and it was probably the best I have ever run. Geared more to the production builder and I am more custom so I had to let it go. But the funny thing was the entire program was written in the Finnish language and everything was metric. Too bad you had to swear alliegence to the almighty rocket scientist to run the program...open architecture and all. Working with the Finnish programmers was alot of fun....seems the national word when things aren't going so good is a four letter version of excreetment. But it was all funny and I grew to really enjoy working with another group of people half way around the world. So we should all just kind of sit back, adapt and be a part of making it better rather than look at the frustrating side.

Besides....it really looks like there is real viable business opportunity knocking for somebody who would be willing to spend the time building metric object libraries....or better yet write some parametric script that would provide access for both systems to utilize.

Well....like Nicholas I talk too much and my spelling is terrible...(make fun of my spelling).

Pete A.

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