Linux port?

[coco]

Hello!

I?m new to VW, but find it to be a very nice cadplatform. However I?m surprised that there are no diskussion about porting VW to Linux. I think it should not be so hard to make a Linux version from the Mac version that is also Unix based today.

I know there is a lot of Linux users outside this forum searching for a good CAD alternative on Linux. A lot of users also would like to move to Linux but are stoppet beacuse of there is no good cad-/BIM alterantive for Linux today. The best I Linux CAD I found so far is IntelliCAD from www.bricscad.com, which I today use on Windows because of there application Architecturals is not yet ported...

I hope VW could be ported very soon to both deb and rpm packages so it could be run on almost every common Linux distro out there! The Linux market is growing very fast - so I think nemetscheck should make their Linuxport now!!

Check out for example the following distros if have not tried Linux yet:

www.simplymepis.org (nice deb disto with some commercial apps, live cd)

www.ubuntu.org or www.kubunru.org (totaly opensource, deb, live cd)

www.suse.com (commercial disto rpm based)

live cd means you can try the full distro from a cd without installing it to the harddisk.

[Christiaan]

Actually I've been dabbling in GNU/Linux (Ubuntu specifically) for the first time recently. I get more concerned as each year passes about vendor lock in and lack of open standards for simple things such as writing a letter, and restrictive patronising behaiviour, such as DRM (Digital Restrictions Management), and limiting me to 5 DVD region code changes, etc.

So I'm learning GNU/Linux so I can jump ship if I want to. Pleasantly surprised so far.

Presumably the main advantage of porting VW to GNU/Linux now is that it would immediately corner the market.

[coco]

Nice that to see I?m not the only one intrested in this subject . I also tried Ubuntu, it is actually the underlaying OS for SimplyMepis now. Mepis has just added some free comercial stuff like Skype and multimedia support for DVD, mp3 etc and made some tweaks in their package. I found the Mepis distro better for my taste right now...

I have tried to run VW in a virtual VMWare machine (www.vmware.com) running WinXP this weekend. It works, but the graphic is slooow, even with VMtools installed. So now I?m trying to find out if there is some other way to speed up the virtual machines graphic. If it?s possible it could be a temporary solution to run VW with a Linux host OS.

I do agree with you that porting VW to GNU/Linux now would immediatly corner the market. Let?s hope Nemetschek is also aware of this...

[Andrew Bell@NV]

The Mac Aqua API is no more like X Window than Windows is, so having a Mac version doesn't help with making a GNU/Linux version. It might corner the market, but it's a pretty small market, one that tends to prefer free/open source software, and one NNA doesn't know that much about. Supporting two platforms is enough of a challenge already...

[Petri]

To quote Basil Fawlty: "What's the point? I mean, what's the bloody point?"

I simply can't understand why there should be a Linux-version of VectorWorks. Are there tens of thousands of architects and other design professionals committed to the Linux-platform, refusing to use either Windows or MacOS?

[coco]

Well I like that VW is already on two platforms. That means it should not be impossible to make that trick again. Below is some market statistics:

September 2006

WinXP 75.6%, W2000 9.2%, Win98 1.4%, WinNT0.3%, W2003 2.0%, Linux 3.5%, Mac 3.8%

As you can see Mac is not that big either. I know a lot of desginers uses it, but why not when the alternative is Windows...However Linux is growing and a good alround cadprogram is missing. I think the one that gets there first will take market shares. So what's the bloody point? It?s to make money!

[coco]

I forgot to add that the OS statistics where found at http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

[alanmac]

I don't see how these figures can relate to the arguement to have a Linux version of VW.

To say that the market share is equal to Mac is misreading the figures, or distorting them to make a point.

The fact that Mac may have only 3.8% of the market overall does not take into account the industries that this 3.8% is in.

Without a doubt there is a greater percentage than 3.8% of people in the creative industries using Apple compared to Windows users.

I'd say that in many market sectors the number of users are about equal or pretty close.

Just as probably there is a greater percentage of Linux users in the Server industries

You can't use these figures you are quoting in isolation.

I'm not saying you are wrong to want it, or it won't happen, but I think the management of NNA would take into account all factors when making such a decision, the one of support being the most costly, and what distribution would they go with. As I understand it there are several to choose from.

If it means the cost of my Apple or Windows versions of VW going up to help fund these costs then I for one say no thanks.

Alan

[coco]

Well the figure is a snapshot of workstations (not servers), go to http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp and you can se the trend is that Linux is growing. I do agree that the Mac share of the designers is greater.

We are not talking about making a new Cadprogram, only about porting an existing one that has already been shown to be portable. There are two dominating systems among all distros in the Linux world, debian and RPM. Making VW work on one would make the packaging for the other easy, or why not just use the new www.autopackage.org that works for all systems.

I do think a VW port for Linux would payoff itself. An easy way to start with would be to use wine to make the windows version of VW work on Linux (http://www.winehq.org). In that way a native port could be considered later.

[Petri]

As you can see Mac is not that big either. I know a lot of desginers uses it, but why not when the alternative is Windows...However Linux is growing and a good alround cadprogram is missing. I think the one that gets there first will take market shares. So what's the bloody point? It?s to make money!

Where is Linux growing? Among hobbyists and very specialised industries. I have not heard of successful, commercial software on Linux.

I would imagine that porting is quite a large task - well, at least the Windows-port was, as I understand. As I already said, to make money NNA would need to sell tens of thousands of licences to new users. (The current user base is, according to NNA, around 400,000.)

In addition to porting itself, the Linux-version would need technical support - also by all distributors around the world. I gather that even Windows generates more tech support requests per user than the Mac platform.

If a CAD-user is tired of Windows, he or she can switch to Mac. I don't see any benefits from a switch to Linux and can hardly imagine an architect or designer switching from Mac to Linux. Why would one do that?

[coco]

Well you are right about it?s hard to find a successful commercial software for Linux, simply because there are so many good free alterantives like OpenOffice, The Gimp, Firefox and so on.

However there is still no good cadprogram and that is also the only reason for me and some of my architect frinds to be held back to Windows. I cannot belive that we are the only one intrested in getting a good cadtool on Linux. A switch to Mac is not intresting me, what has changed if one do that? The OS, but not the freedom how to use that OS.

On the architectfirm with around 60 persons where I work, we consider the software beeing a costly part in our budget. Linux is a very intresting alterantive, it has all programs needed for our work except a good cadprogram.

[coco]

With the some help by Codeweavers it should not be too hard to make WV work on all Linux distros around. See www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/certify/. All windows API?s that the Windows version of VW uses has to be taken care of by codeweavers crossover/wine.

I hope Nemetschek at least could take contact with the Codeweavers team to find out how hard it would be. A lot of popular comercial Windows programs already work this way under Linux (and also Mac today).

[Thom]

I was just reading a review of the new MS Vista operating system. The following is a quote out of the summary.

"Oh, but before I go, let me add that the Linux and Mac desktops, are every bit as good now, if not better, than Vista will be tomorrow."

[G_Hannigan]

They probably have enough on their plate trying to get the new Mac version working properly and Vista is coming soon. The economic return would have to be huge & certain for them to even consider it.

[joelikeslinux]

I would love it if vectorworks were ported to linux. If I knew enough about how to do it. I would do it myself. Sadly I don't have the knowledge. I would love to get away from windows without having to drop 2000 dollars on a mac.

[Christiaan]

I would love to get away from windows without having to drop 2000 dollars on a mac.

Well, next time you're about to drop 2000 dollars on a PC just drop it on a Mac instead.

[mclaugh]

I would love it if vectorworks were ported to linux. If I knew enough about how to do it. I would do it myself. Sadly I don't have the knowledge

If you knew how to do it, you would know that you wouldn't have either the time, the energy, or the resources to do it.

[Petri]

Nothing against Linux. I even know Linus's father. But what's the point, what's the b-dy point!

People who do not have money to buy an operating system are not going to buy professional CAD-software. While there may be a contingent of cigar-chomping revolucionaries who, on principle, refuse to support Messrs Gates and Jobs, do they have any money?

Are they willing to pay for software & (especially) support? At present, we Mac-users are, in a way, subsidising those who have Windows-machines: the tech support people of VW distributors deal mainly with Windows-problems, not VW-problems.

(Besides, are Microsoft and Apple really & fundamentally so much worse companies than Intel, AMD, Samsung, Sony, LG or whatever manufacturer whose components are used in the computers of our Linux-warriors? Are their owners less greedy? More community-minded? I don't think so.)

[wezelboy]

People who do not have money to buy an operating system are not going to buy professional CAD-software.

As someone who used to be in charge of an annual IT budget between $500K and $1.5M, I can definitely say that there is money to be made in the Linux application space. I've spent lots of money on linux apps and support for those apps. Most serious Linux users are not "cigar chomping revolutionaries" but rather people who understand a couple key truths:

1- Windows always has been, and probably always will be, an incredibly crappy operating system.

2- Apple always has been, and probably always will be, limited by their hardware selection. While Apple does have some very nice hardware, you can't get a 1/2 depth 1RU box and slap 70 of them in a rack, or get the latest whiz bang graphics card.

Linux occupies the middle ground between these two. It is a decent operating system. Not as nice as OSX, but it will work with just about any hardware. The main thing against Linux is the relative dearth of applications.

I don't expect NNA to port VW to Linux. But if they did, it might give some Windows users a reason to switch to Linux.

And as for the evils of Microsoft or Apple versus hardware manufacturers... Here is a handy dandy moral compass for you to go by:

Microsoft- Evilest of them all. Bill Gates may very well be the anti-christ. His foundation is just a ruse.

Apple- Not so evil. Sometimes Jobs is brilliant. Sometimes he is an idiot.

Intel- Evil. But at least they make decent processors.

AMD- Not evil. Possibly good even.

Sony- Not so evil.

LG- Not so evil.

Sun- Not so evil.

SGI- Who?

[mclaugh]

You forgot the most important key truth:

Until Linux is as easy for ordinary users to install, configure, and use as either OS X or Windows, the 98% of computer users who have no interest in having to become computer geeks in order to USE their computers will have no interest in it.

Edited September 11, 2007 by mclaugh

[Christiaan]

The main thing against Linux is the relative dearth of applications.

I think the main thing against GNU/Linux is that it's created by developers generally for developers. There seem to be efforts to overcome this (e.g. Ubuntu) but generally speaking GNU/Linux doesn't have a culture of catering for the non-geek end-user. Hope I'm wrong but it's probably the one reason why it will never catch up with the likes of Mac OS X.

[Petri]

2- Apple always has been, and probably always will be, limited by their hardware selection. While Apple does have some very nice hardware, you can't get a 1/2 depth 1RU box and slap 70 of them in a rack

Certainly so. But - what's the relevance? Should people buy their personal workstation on the basis that you can slap 70 computers in a rack?

And as for the evils of Microsoft or Apple versus hardware manufacturers... Here is a handy dandy moral compass for you to go by:

Microsoft- Evilest of them all. Bill Gates may very well be the anti-christ. His foundation is just a ruse.

Apple- Not so evil. Sometimes Jobs is brilliant. Sometimes he is an idiot.

OK. William "Ernst Stavro Blofeld" Gates dominates the world, so he is Evil. Steven "Elliot Carver" Jobs only aspires to dominate, so he is Not So Evil.

Well, a nice moral compass indeed.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Petri

[wezelboy]

Linux (especially a newer distribution) is not that hard to install or configure. It might require some very basic computing/networking knowledge at the most. If you can't wrap your head around clicking the "obtain IP address automatically" radio button, then you probably should not be using a computer.

[Christiaan]

wezelboy, you just confirmed my previous comment very nicely.

[wezelboy]

Certainly so. But - what's the relevance? Should people buy their personal workstation on the basis that you can slap 70 computers in a rack?

No. But there are people who do that sort of thing and spend lots of money on Linux apps.

For a workstation, I would love to run OSX on a microATX form factor instead of the gargantuan G5/MacPro form factor that takes up half my desk. But Apple doesn't offer any standalone box between the mini and the pro.

OK. William "Ernst Stavro Blofeld" Gates dominates the world, so he is Evil. Steven "Elliot Carver" Jobs only aspires to dominate, so he is Not So Evil.

It's not that simple. The moral compass is based on Kant's Categorical Imparative, with a light sprinkling of the Sherman Act.