Snaps to gray layers

[Ken]

Another little problem... or perhaps I'm still hallucinating...

While I'm feasting on the new Gray/Snap Others layer option, I still often need Show/Snap Others -- keeping certain layers gray so they DON'T snap. The layers that I DO want snapping I keep visible.

Problem is, even when grayed, they're snapping like a school of piranhas!

Anybody else?

[Guest]

Are you sure you have Show.Snap others for both layers and classes (or whatever is appropriate for the class options)

I've found myself in this same situation only to notice that I also had the class options set to Gray/Snap others.

PS - Gray/snap is one of my favorite new 12.5 features!!!

[Ken]

No, Katie, I am not sure. Wait... yes I am. No, wait...

I love it when people ask me if I'm sure (or whatever is appropriate to push me off the precipice).

Oh I get it -- you're just trying to confirm that, yes, I AM HALLUCINATING!

Well I was kinda hoping that somebody would confirm the other issue in my post -- the one where I went through the trouble of providing a visual aid.

Insane asylum I go if I must...

[mike m oz]

Katie, I think what Arch.Ken is saying is that the Wish List item was for a 4th visibility option for Layers, rather than another Layer Visibility Option. ie Gray and 'snappable' layers so that you could have several layers visible and 'snappable' along with a Grayed layer which was also 'snappable'.

What has been implemented is a valuable added capability, but it doesn't provide the versatility that a 4th Layer Visibility option would have. (The same rationale also applies to classes)

Edited September 19, 2006 by mike m oz

[MKingsley]

I think I just snapped...

[marek.dk]

grey/snap others is a wonderful feature, thanks to the techs.

But it?s true the 'show/snap others' is snapping to greyed layers now. seems like a mistake.

[P Retondo]

So, let's see if I get this: Ken and others want to be able to "Show/Snap Others" and to "Show/Snap Others Excluding Gray"?

[Guest]

OKay - I'm confused now.

1. Gray Snap Others for layers and classes controls the ability to snap to objects on grayed classes and/or layers

2. Show Snap Others allows you to show others while snapping to other visible (not gray layers)

3. Gray others allows you to Show the active, but gray out all other layers

If you want to snap to some layers and gray others, then set the option to Show Snap Others and set the layers you don't want to snap to as visible in the Nav Palette.

But now, Show Snap others is still snapping to grayed layers, where 12 01 didn't.

Is this correct?

Ken - For what it's worth, I wasn't trying to paw you off. I'm simply trying to lend a helping hand in providing other things to look for. You'd be surprised how many calls/emails a day have to do with one little preference being overlooked.

[PeterT]

Are there not two ways to gray a layer?

1. Organize/Layer Options/Gray Others

2. Organize/ Layers, then in the Layers Setup Dialog, check the gray diamond next to the Layer name and click O.K.

I think the original post may be suggesting that you should not be able to snap to layers made gray by the Layers Setup unless the grayed layer is active, regardless of the choice in Layer Options.

[Ken]

Thanks for the confirmation. I've submitted a bug report like this:

- launch VW 12.5, default file

- in VW Preferences, checkmark SmartCursor cues, Opaque SmartCursor, Use floating datum, Eight selection handles

- in Contraints pallette, turn ON Snap to Object, Snap to Intersection, and Smart Points

- open the Organization window (shift-command-o), click on Design Layers tab

- create two more design layers (Design Layer-2, Design Layer-3)

- draw some overlapping rectangles in Design Layer-3

- draw some overlapping circles in Design Layer-2

- draw some overlapping walls in Design Layer-1 (active layer)

- set Layer Options (under View menu) for Show/Snap Others

- in Navigation palette, set Design Layer-3 to gray visibility diamond

- from Design Layer-1, can you snap to the gray rectangles in Design Layer-3?

Prior to 12.5, the gray rectangles was just gray and not snappable.

[Ken]

The next question is whether this is problem or not.

Except for Marek.dk's comment, I still feel kinda lonely in my complaint. Hopefully I'm not among the so few that misses gray layers staying "unsnappable?" It bites me every time I use my template file that has saved views with the settings in place -- something that will occur project after project for me.

How else would you snap to certain layers but not others while requiring all to be somewhat visible?

[marek.dk]

yes, katie. your confirmation was right.

[Ken]

yes, katie. your confirmation was right.

Now that we all know what this is about (recognizing the problem), will it be fixed, Katie? At least placed in line to get reviewed? Or is marek.dk the only other person to see it as "a mistake?"

[mike m oz]

This problem wouldn't exist if a 4th Layer Visibility state had been implemented rather than Snap to Gray layers.

There are some circumstances where users may want to be able to Snap to the Grayed Layers, such as when you are using it for a background for MEP or framing drawings. Other times users will not want to be able to Snap to the grayed layer. The current implementation doesn't allow you to choose which you want. We will just have to learn to live with the limitation. Such is life.

[Guest]

The situation is currently being discussed in the office.

My personal opinion, not one of NNA, is that a 4th function would better serve the purpose.

[Ken]

Mike, thank you for your comments. However, I must admit that I'm still lost as to what you're talking about. Upon reading you again, I keep thinking about the 4th dimension in our current space-time continuum... how to implement it better rather than blindly follow it as it ebbs and flows throughout the day and week and month.

Are you talking about adding a 4th column for the diamonds in the Navigation palette?

1st Layer/Class Visibility = visible

2nd Layer/Class Visibility = invisible

3rd Layer/Class Visibility = grey

4th Layer/Class Visibility = ???

[mike m oz]

Yes:

- 3rd Layer/Class Visibility = Gray (not snappable as per VW 12.0 and before).

- 4th Layer/Class Visibility = Gray Snap.

The new Layer Visibility option of Gray/Snap Others would become redundant and could be removed.

This issue shows how easy it is to misunderstand what others are talking about. From the wish list for being able to Snap to Grayed layers I always assumed that people were requesting a 4th Layer Visibility option. The NNA People obviously thought that people were chasing the capability to have all Grayed Layers snappable. Same information - two interpretations. You can bet some people will want it one way and others will want it the other way.

I can live with it the way it is. Adding another level of complexity would make life even more difficult for new and inexperienced users.

Edited September 21, 2006 by mike m oz

[Ken]

Mike, I think I now understand what you're talking about. But I also see how it may be more difficult to implement for NNA engineers -- perhaps even causing greater problems for users compared to what we have now. PeterT above seems to have started describing it. There are two different sets of control over layers.

First, instead of Layer Options, I think it should be called "Levels of Manipulation." It's like choosing your weapons in increasing levels of deadliness -- and how you see your target is part of how they can be attacked:

The other set of controls, which you're talking about, is purely the visual state of each layer. Nicely columnized in the Navigation palette and Organization window, this set of controls have nothing to do with establishing how (objects in the) layers can be manipulated. It's just their visibility settings:

So to suggest having a "4th Layer Visibility" seems like going beyond our existing space-time continuum. Humor intended. There's ON. There's OFF. There's halfway GREY. A 4th visibility option would have to be something like a lighter shade of grey? Or maybe fixing it at layer color? Remember we're only talking about visibility. Any additional manipulation/ control/ handling setting would have to be added to the "Levels of Manipulation," which is what we now see in 12.5 with the new Gray/Snap Others. Needless to say, the versatility and fun part comes from the various combinations of the "visibility" settings and "manipulation" settings.

Now, to go back to the problem that I'm reporting...

There wouldn't be any "limitation" if Show/Snap Others didn't behave like Gray/Snap Others! Because others have confirmed it, I now know it should NOT behave that way. It never did prior to 12.5. It shouldn't now. It's effectively a removal of one of the weapons. It's just a bug.

[mike m oz]

Maybe the layers could be blue rather than gray when they are made snappable. The indicator could be a light blue diamond and the layers could appear as 'blue' rather than gray.

[Ken]

I can understand that sometimes it does seem as easy as suggesting a different color.

[P Retondo]

Ken, I agree with your complaint, but I'm not sure I would call it a bug. I personally like the option of having some layers normal, some gray, and being able to snap to both.

On the other hand, for the way I work, having all layers gray and snappable is not especially useful, particularly because viewports and saved views can set the display of layers. If I wanted to see them all gray, I could set it that way - but before 12.5, I couldn't also snap to them.

So I would think it better to have two distinct "Show/Snap Others" options, and get rid of "Gray/Snap Others". The new options would be "Show/Snap Others" as it is currently designed, and "Show All/Snap non-gray", or something to that effect. These operational choices are different from both 12.0 and 12.5, and I think would be an improvement on both.

[Ken]

Pete, I always appreciate your comments.

While I agree that having all layers gray and snappable is not particularly useful -- especially when there are many layers -- often I want one or two layers gray and UNSNAPPABLE while still being able to snap to plainly visible layers. This has always been available until now. The addition of the new Gray/Snap Others option shouldn't have affected it.

Your suggestion might be best. If I'm not mistaken, it could be more accurately called "Show/Snap Others Except Gray!"

Yes. NNA, please swap. If snapping to all gray layers is now standard, just change Gray/SnapOthers to "Show/SnapOthers/ExceptGray."

When is 12.5.1 getting released?

[P.S.: I'm no longer feasting on Gray/Snap Others. I'm puking from it]

[P Retondo]

just change Gray/SnapOthers to "Show/SnapOthers/ExceptGray."

Ken, yes! that's the logical solution, and better wording.

[Ken]

So you realize that ALL gray layers are now snappable regardless of Layer Options? And you're also indirectly saying it's the full desired "improvement" in 12.5?

That's the only way that a replacement "Gray/SnapOthersExceptGray" would make sense.

I'm not sure anymore if NNA engineers care about straightening this one way or another.

[mike m oz]

Arch.Ken, I think the NNA guys do care otherwise they wouldn't have introduced the ability to snap to greyed layers in response to the expressed wish for it.

There are now several solutions to the problem:

1. Having a 4th Layer Visibility State

Having the option to set the Layer Visibility State to:

- Visible

- Invisible

- Gray

- Gray/Snap

2. Having more Layer Visibility Options

At the moment Grayed layers are snappable in the following:

Gray/Snap Others

Show/Snap Others

Show/Snap/Modify Others

The Layer Options could be:

Active Only

Gray Others

Gray/Snap Others

Show Others

Show/Snap Others

Show/Snap Others + Gray

Show/Snap/Modify Others

Show/Snap/Modify Others + Gray

3. Having a separate toggle for snapping to Grayed Layers

The Layer Visibility States and Layer Visibility Option could remain as they used to be in 12 with an additional Menu item for switching the Grayed Layers from unsnappable to snappable. This could be a Contextual Menu Item so that it comes up when you right click with the mouse.

My preference is for Option 1 as it would provide the greatest overall flexibility in the simplest way, and witching Layer Visibility States is quick and easy with the Navigation Palette. I still think there would need to be a 'visual cue' on the drawings by having the Gray snappable layers a different colour like light blue.

Both option 2 and 3 would be okay as well. Perhaps a simple poll on what people would prefer is in order. (Including Leave it as it is as a choice.)

Edited September 24, 2006 by mike m oz