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The release information for a Universal Binary version of VW is unchanged. You can bet, as soon as it's available, we will post a message here. In addition, if you subscribe to the eDispatch, you'll receive an email alerting you, too.

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I would also like to know when -- approximately.

Unchanged from what estimate release date (or month or year)?

"As soon as possible" is what they've said.

My hunch was that it would be yesterday at the latest, as this is when Apple originally said they would ship Intel-based machines and NNA subsequently said they would ship a UB ready for these machines.

Obviously not going as originally planned.

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Hello -

I apologize in advance to those who find it necessary to defend Nemetschek's business policies, or who are tired of listening to complaining about this subject.

In an article titled "Technology Update: Rosetta Compatibility" (from the NNA Knowledgebase - February, 2006), Nemetschek said this:

<..."These functional problems and speed issues prevent us from recommending that VectorWorks be used on Intel-Macintosh hardware in a professional environment. However, VectorWorks 12 is stable and robust enough under Rosetta emulation to be used in some limited evaluations or less demanding capacities."...>

We need to add another workstation (possibly two) to our "professional environment", but Apple no longer makes PowerPC based computers. Our patience is growing thin, Nemetschek. Why has it taken so long to release the 'Universal Binary' version of VectorWorks? We have invested a lot of time and money in Nemetschek over the last eight years, but we can no longer afford to wait. Please give us an anticipated release date for VectorWorks 12.5. (one week? 6 weeks? 20 weeks???)

Here is a link to the whole article:

http://kbase.nemetschek.net/index.php?ToDo=view&questId=91&catId=23

frustrated,

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Hi Doug, I understand your frustration and I understand that planning hardware upgrades can be difficult but this whole transitional process has been known for quite some time now.

I'm not defending NNA. I was simply pointing out the situation as I understand it. On the other hand I'd be concerned if NNA were to feel they were rushing the next release. Rushing software is bad for everyone involved.

My advice would actually be to purchase the new Mac Pros and put up with the bugs if you can. However if you absolutely need to purchase more workstations and you absolutely cannot put up with the problems as noted then you could purchase Quad G5s, which are still very powerful machines and still available from many resellers.

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you are now out of options.

There are a few options:


  • Buy Intel-based Macs and put up with the bugs in Vectorworks (we have an Intel machine running Vectorworks and the bugs aren't that bad)
  • Buy Intel-based Macs and run Vectorworks on Windows via Bootcamp or Parallels (I think VW 12 serials might be cross platform)
  • Buy Power Mac G5s

You cannot buy a new non-Intel Mac.

No, this is incorrect. Many resellers are still supplying Power Mac G5s:

http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_1471222_5/103-7711857-3868629?ie=UTF8&node=4184571

http://www.cdw.com/shop/tools/sbb/vendor.aspx?mfg=APL&mfrn=5658068

http://www.clubmac.com/clubmac/families/powermacg5/

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/ecmac/shop/showcaseb/default~showcaseb~power_mac_g5.asp

http://www.maczone.com/cgi-bin/zones/sit...69&zone=mac

http://www.macconnection.com/ProductDetail?Sku=6080005

http://www.macmall.com/macmall/families/powermac_g5/

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Doug,

I happen to think you are being unreasonable to expect NNA or indeed any other software manufacturer of any size to be able launch UB versions to coincide with Apple hardware releases. On the Mac side as far as I am aware, there are NO professional CAD applications available as UBs. As Apple take a "no information" approach to hardware releases how are software companies supposed to plan releases, and more importantly test, releases that are UBs?

Testing professional apps on iMacs and the like might be OK but it is not the same as testing on a released hardware platform.

Bear in mind that for the professional arena, Cinema 4D and Quark are the only available UBs currently. there are no Adobe apps, no Autodesk (Alias). One thing to consider is that CAD manufacturers often use component technology to enhance or construct the applications. Until ALL the components are available as UBs the software companies cannot even start the task of releasing UBs. Spatial, makers of the ACIS kernel used by FormZ, Ashlar-Vellum and others, only last week released a first release UB to developers. Now they have the task of integrating and testing.

So I'm not defending NNA but be reasonable. Fact is that on one of these new machines VW and most other software will run very well indeed even under Rosetta. And when the UB versions do roll out you will have state of the art.

Alternatively, buy a Windows machine. Dell do some fantastic value machines. :-)

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Lets not get onto Mac vs PC Christiaan :-) I use both, G5, iMac Intel, Dell Precision desktop and laptops. Personally I prefer Macs for everything apart from 3D CAD, where the OpenGL performance of Windows PCs wins hands down. Having said that the ability to run Windows on Macs now makes our hardware purchases much easier - laptops will be Macs, Desktops still need both.

Getting back to Dougs point though, I am in his position and we are buying the new Intel Macs depite the availablility of G5s. Why? In a UB application Intel machines beat G5s hands down. Even in Rossetta we are finding apps run more or less the same on an iMac Intel than a single processor G5.

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Doug,

I happen to think you are being unreasonable to expect NNA or indeed any other software manufacturer of any size to be able launch UB versions to coincide with Apple hardware releases.....

.....So I'm not defending NNA but be reasonable. Fact is that on one of these new machines VW and most other software will run very well indeed even under Rosetta. And when the UB versions do roll out you will have state of the art.

Quigley and others -

Nemetschek's current recommendation is against running Vectorworks under Rosetta. I my posting, I made the mistake of demanding for a 'Universal Binary' version of Vectorworks, when the reality is that all we need is a version that Vectorworks endorses running under Rosetta. Regarding the release of updated software to coincide with Apple hardware releases, the first Intel Macs were available last January.

After reading responses to this issue, it may be worth the risk to go ahead and buy a new Intel Mac and hope we don't have any problems. This is the only apparent option for us at this point.

slightly less frustrated,

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Lets not get onto Mac vs PC Christiaan :-)

I wasn't. I'm was pointing out plain common sense. It would be extremely silly to buy a Dell in this scenario. Not only are the Mac Pros a lot cheaper than their Dell counterparts but, as you point out, the Mac Pros run both Windows and Mac OS X.

That Dell's are "PC" and Apple's are "Mac" is completely beside the point.

Personally I prefer Macs for everything apart from 3D CAD, where the OpenGL performance of Windows PCs wins hands down.

But you're conflating Apple hardware with Mac OS X and Windows-only hardware with Windows. You may prefer Windows for OpenGL performance, but this has nothing to do with Apple or Dell hardware.

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...After reading responses to this issue, it may be worth the risk to go ahead and buy a new Intel Mac and hope we don't have any problems...

I would agree. After some thought, I realized that VW has had bugs before. The difference here is that we the Users are able to identify a cause and effect. We know that the bug is due to Intel/Rosetta incompatibility.

There were times before when we had to put up with bugs and had no idea why they existed and what caused them.

If you buy a G5, it will instantly be outdated. You might as well get a MacPro, enjoy your new purchase and deal with the associated bugs as they appear. They aren't the first bugs and will not be the last.

My two cents :-)

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So do Apple. $1000 cheaper than Dell apparently too.

Nope. Certainly not if you are refering to this article as being spread around the various forums, as the basis for your statement.

http://hardware.seekingalpha.com/article/15126

From what I can see on the site they are not as stated "comparable" or vastly cheaper, from the Mac Pro and Dell configuration, which shows nearly a thousand dollars difference in the chart.

Apple Mac Pro = 2499

Dell Precision Workstation 690 = 3471

The Mac Pro has a different graphics card a nVidia 7300 GT card whilst the Dell has a Quadro FX 3450 which I understand from a comment further down would bring them up to the same price level if added to the Apple, and if you wanted to get picky the Dell probably comes with a longer warranty.

Indeed the only Quadro you can get from Apple in your machine adds 1650 dollars to the 2499.

Sorry, but to my way of thinking unless Apple are subsidising the cost of Mac Pros from the sale of iPods and selling at a loss, the economies of scale and cost of such items as the high quality ali case on the Apple means they will never uncut Dell.

I'm glad to see the Mac Pros are out at last, but it appears to me that in some areas people are getting carried away about how they are vastly cheaper than Dell etc.

I would not mind paying some extra money for the Apple because of its superior build, style, and different OS but I can't see it ever being much cheaper than Dell etc. not without losing something along the way.

Alan

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The GF 7300GT has about the same clock & pipes as QFX 3450, but much lower memory bandwidth. However, if you pump the Mac Pro up to the ATI X1900 for $350, it's still $600 less than the Dell but has more GPU power. If you then add $250 for AppleCare it's still $350 cheaper.

My main point was that it would be silly if you were already in the market to buy a Mac Pro to then go off and buy a Windows-only PC, especially so when the Mac Pro is cheaper.

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And my point was that to spread around that Apples new machine is cheaper than say a Dell with the same hardware is simply not true.

I don't see anything wrong in being a bit more expensive if you see the value in that additional cost through build quality and design, which Apple certainly has.

I'm not defending Dell as a company or its machines and I'm genuinely pleased that Apple users, myself included, now have the opportunity to buy machines with the sort of speed that Windows users have enjoyed for years, myself included.

Even Apple proudly boasts how much faster these are over its old G5's etc. But that was not the case pre Intel partnership days was it !!

So apart from personal preference in choice of OS the machines will be much more closely matched than ever before with the difference in cost much clearer.

Alan

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I cannot fathom the idea of choosing an operating system based upon price.

And nor did I suggest that it is the only consideration, let alone the most important one. In fact my advice was about hardware.

And my point was that to spread around that Apples new machine is cheaper than say a Dell with the same hardware is simply not true.

Well numbers are numbers. Not $1000 but it's still cheaper.

I'm genuinely pleased that Apple users, myself included, now have the opportunity to buy machines with the sort of speed that Windows users have enjoyed for years

Actually much of the time Mac-based PowerPC desktops have offered better performance than Windows-based x86 machines. It's always been a bit of jump frog affair to be honest. We're not necessarily getting Macs that are faster than they would have been with this change, we're getting Macs that are cooler than they would have been.

Even Apple proudly boasts how much faster these are over its old G5's etc. But that was not the case pre Intel partnership days was it !!

As they do with every processor upgrade. Apple didn't change to x86 because PowerPC chips were slower, they changed because they were too hot.

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Deluded me. Sorry Christiaan it's you who seem unable to grasp the simple fact and logic, and I've now seen it commented upon in several other forums, that the comparison that is being portrayed to show that Apple machine is much cheaper than the Dell is simply not correct.

That aside, it doesn't take much business expertise to come to the conclusion the economy of scale and such obvious factors as the style, materials and make up of the Apple system case for example, mean that Dell has a manufacturing cost advantage.

Sure the now defunct dual core dual processor machine was fast, but it took dual processors to get it to that level at that price, to insure it remained viable amongst the alternatives workstations available.

It's disappointing that as part of its launch Apple has to use the poor marketing practise of slagging off another company, and distorting the reality to do it. Hypocritical also considering past remarks about Intel machines. But its not the first time, and to be fair not just Apple, all part of the tricks that marketing gets up to to push their products.

I quote from another forum with regard to the same article I mentioned.

"It's very typical for the raving fanbase to make such bold and unsubstantiated claims, such as when OSViews claimed that the macbook was cheaper than a comparable Dell... even though the Dell they used in the comparison was Dell's most expensive model, and the macbook was Apple's least expensive model, and MUCH less powerful and de-featured by comparison.

Of course, it turned out that a real comparison showed the prices to be pretty close, making the raving fanbase's claims unnecessary, but if they were rational, they wouldn't be raving acolytes

No one's going to underprice Dell without cutting a lot of very nasty corners **cough** , but comparing the macpro to something comparably equipped from... say... Boxx will probably look better for Apple than comparing to Dell."

I can tell you are a "dedicated" Apple fan so I'll not waste my time further.

Alan

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it doesn't take much business expertise to come to the conclusion the economy of scale and such obvious factors as the style, materials and make up of the Apple system case for example, mean that Dell has a manufacturing cost advantage.

Who knows how Apple's pricing is being worked though? For all you know they might be subsidising the price via iPods. They also don't have to licence Windows.

I can tell you are a "dedicated" Apple fan so I'll not waste my time further.

You can call me whatever you like, it's not going to change the facts.

Mac Pro

? Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon

? 2GB 667MHz RAM

? 1x 16X DVD+/-RW dual-layer optical drive

? 1x 500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s

? NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 512MB, Stereo 3D (2 x dual-link DVI)

? Keyboard and Mouse

? Mac OS X (and ability to run Windows)

? 3-year warranty

= $4898

Dell Precision Workstation 690

? Two 2.66GHz Dual-Core Intel Xeon

? 2GB 667MHz RAM

? 1x 16X DVD+/-RW optical drive

? 1x 500GB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s

? NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 512MB, Stereo 3D (2 x dual-link DVI)

? Keyboard and Mouse

? Windows

? 3-year warranty

= $5547

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