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Ken

Offset error or my imagination?

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Sorry that I misinterpreted your choice of title for the thread. I'll consult a cognition therapist to try to do something about my serious comprehension problems...

Apologies accepted, jan. Please do see that therapist if you're so inclined.

It's a sad scary world when people accept a digital tool that's 99% accurate only because they think they rarely see the 1% problem. Who knows if all those other "safe" offsets previously made were in fact accurate! Who cares! We usually refer to this as "making an assumption." And that you presume to know this entire discussion by just looking at the title is a case in point. Those who judge a book by its cover...

It seems you're sure that every VW draftsman is responsible enough to have checked (somehow checked, but I wouldn't presume to know how exactly) that every offset segment ever created in every drawing had the desired result. How wonderful is life when problems don't show up! Yes I realize that's how you've "used VW quite a bit." And you think that's how we should keep our insurance premiums down, too. Good for you.

Good luck to you.

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Oh, pul-leeeeez. I haven't even gotten started.

Thank you for contributing YOUR comments, brightlines.

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Oh, pul-leeeeez. I haven't even gotten started.

Agreed. A good place to start would be to point out what's wrong with specific comments I made, rather than ignoring those comments and the level of study they imply, and saying that I "presume to know this entire discussion by just looking at the title".

And I agree with litebrite, also. Disagreement and debate are fundamental to a forum, but it doesn't seem productive to counter an opinion by saying that it evidences mental impairment in its proponent.

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jan15, you keep proving how poor your reading skills are. If you care to read my comments again in reply to you, you will find that I did point out exactly what's wrong with your specific comments. Please go back and read it again. The fact that it was so ludicrous pointed to only one thing about the person who made it.

Then as you referred only to the subject line of the discussion when in fact I had first thought you were coming off of the other indirect comments proved that you formed your erroneous judgment without much study -- without reading or comprehending the entire discussion! And why? If you do use the offset tool often enough, you would NOT be so quick to brush it off as "trivial." That is YOUR offense here. You never really apologized for YOUR first slap coming out of nowhere and with no relevance. "Sorry that I misinterpreted your choice of title..." was your second slap.

Get real, jan15. Face the facts. If you truly believe in disagreement and debate, I suggest you first learn how to do it without offending anybody. Don't land in the middle here like a spoiled prom queen expecting anybody to bow to your presence. I'm not the one who started the hostility.

Face the truth. YOU are the one who first spewed the muck. And still you probably don't even know it. The fact that some of us are passionate about the software and vie to improve it for everybody's benefit doesn't give you any excuse to brush it aside as you see fit.

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Not being a technogeek (I don?t comprehend the math), I?m more interested in a practical solution to the problem, bug, anomaly, or whatever it should be called.

I sometimes use offsets of polygons or polylines to draw my walls and would like to know what should I be looking for, to avoid the issue. Maybe the ?imaginary extension? line condition? How do I know it when I see it?

Or maybe I should convert everything to lines, offset, and then re-compose, as mike noted. That doesn?t seem very efficient.

Perhaps the best solution might be to check the distances in the suspected locations, after the offset, and then add or subtract surfaces.

Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion.

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David,

The problem (which for brevity we could call the Arch.Ken Anomaly) only occurs when you offset a polygon that has an edge that's shorter than the offset distance. That's how you can watch for it.

The only way to be sure it's occurred is, as you suggested, by dimensioning the offset-from-imaginary-extension-line and seeing that the value isn't what you intended. Perhaps in the past the OFIEL never seemed important to you, and so you didn't dimension it and didn't discover it. That may explain why someone as "passionate about the software" as Arch.Ken didn't discover it sooner, and it may also explain why NNA didn't find the problem and correct it sooner.

And that difficulty in detecting the AKA, even among passionate users, is the reason why I called it "trivial", not out of disrespect for its discoverer. On the contrary. I, too, am a detail-oriented person, and have great respect for people who can find a pea under the mattress that even I didn't notice. I enjoyed the discussion about exactly what sort of pea it was, and whether it was in fact a pea or just a part of the mattress. I just thought it got a little out of hand when MJW criticized NNA - very sharply, I thought - for not correcting it sooner. I thought he "overreacted", as he suggested later

I thought that the criticism of NNA was an overreaction, but a natural result of the hubris that we detail-oriented people often feel when we get a chance to engage in such discussions. I hope noone was offended by the term "techno-geek". If you re-read the sentence you'll see that it refers primarily to me. It only applies to others if they agree that the subject matter was trivial (perhaps I should have said "esoteric") and yet found the discussion as interesting as I did.

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Arch.Ken,

It wasn't only your title that made me think the discussion had two sides to it. It was also your initial question "Can something as basic as this still be a bug?", as well as later comments by others, including Islandmon's comment "No bug". As I read, I developed an impression of the AKA, which I confirmed didn't occur in earlier versions, as something that began when a change was made in the offset tool, presumably to correct some other anomaly, perhaps relating to offsets of polylines with complex curves. The new algorithm turned out to have an unintended result, which went undetected for a long time because it's so rarely that anyone both incurs it and has reason to be concerned about it.

My first "slap", as you called it, was directed at MJW, who took it well, I thought. He didn't agree with me entirely, but saw my point, and in any case didn't call me names. It wasn't directed at you, and it wasn't an attack on anyone's character or intelligence. It was an attack on an idea, which is what a forum is all about. I still haven't engaged in any personal attacks on you or anyone else. If you want to do so, that's your prerogative. I just think it's counterproductive, and I'm going to call attention to that as I would to any other flaw that I see in an argument.

What you called my "second slap" wasn't a slap at all. My apology for misinterpreting your title was genuine, and anyone can see why I might have made the mistake, given your puzzled tone and the fact that it took a lot of discussion to finally label the AKA as a bug. My offer to see a therapist was tongue-in-cheek, but it was a polite and temperate response to someone who openly tried to insult me and belittle my intelligence. I assumed that you were caught up in the heat of the moment, the "hubris" as I said earlier, and otherwise wouldn't have made an overt personal attack, so I responded with humor to give you a chance to cool off and take another approach.

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Once it's fixed, I want full credit for bringing it up, which will ultimately benefit you, jan15, if you indeed use Vectorworks as you claim. You're welcome, jan15! grin.gif

...Perhaps in the past the OFIEL [sic] never seemed important to you, and so you didn't dimension it and didn't discover it. That may explain why someone as "passionate about the software" as Arch.Ken didn't discover it sooner, and it may also explain why NNA didn't find the problem and correct it sooner...

... it also explains why jan15 will never know if it had occurred repeatedly in jan15's old drawings. How splendid. Why worry? How can it hurt us if we don't know about it?! It's so TRIVIAL! Let's enjoy our bliss! LOL. Nice.

And more wisdom -- it takes early discovery of all bugs in a software to be passionate about that software! Again what a fascinating display of reasoning!

I'd better start taking notes!

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If you truly believe in disagreement and debate, I suggest you first learn how to do it without offending anybody. Don't land in the middle here like a spoiled prom queen expecting anybody to bow to your presence.

Do you we really need this crap on this forum? I applaud Jan15 for his restraint. It's embarrassing and laughable. NNA, are you sure you want this guy as an authorized reseller?

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I'm glad you had a chance to finally "cool off" as you so aptly put it. I was beginning to worry about you and your multiple levels of assumptions. The best that I can offer to help you check yourself is simply don't jump to conclusions, especially when it's based on a partial reading. There are often many sides of an issue as you're hopefully learning.

Again, apologies accepted and please disregard anybody else who labels this as an attack or counterattack (borrowed military euphemisms). Good luck.

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Okay, you got me. I wanted to twist it and take it over the top to make a point. Now you quote me out of context. Indeed, it is laughable. I will stop.

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Being from the "Old School" I NEVER use the Offset Tool preferring instead to use the 'proven' DoubleLine Tool. That being said ... happens ... and it's really nobody's fault that there's a flaw in the Offset Tool or that it took so long to discover or that NNA has not jumped on it much sooner ... Normally, when a flaw is discovered in a procedure we just find a work-around and move on with our business ... such is life. Sooner or later improvements arrive on the scene.

This forum provides us all with the opportunity to participate "equally" within the process of discovery,development & evolution. There are no Bad Guys here ... all comments, criticism & witticism must be forever welcome ...

have at it ; )

A sobering thought ... remember all this stuff is being archived for future viewing ...

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I wanted to twist it and take it over the top to make a point.

Over the top? Like in a bar-room? Where you pretend you're so drunk you don't care what happens to you? To scare people into thinking you might do anything -- maybe start throwing stools around, or break a beer bottle and try to cut someone with it?

Interesting approach. But how was that going to work over the internet?

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OK people, go back to your respective stools and take a time-out.

After tinkering with this problem, I realized that, in architecture at least, it doesn?t make any difference.

With a wall thickness typically of 5? or more, the length of the line would have to be very short indeed to cause the problem, and that never happens.

Islandmon: When using the double line to draw, say perimeter walls, how do you ?connect/combine? the corners? Each wall length is a separate set of lines or polygons.

Or are you using the double-line polygon tool which automatically trims the corners?

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David

For that type of drawing I like double-line polygon. The different modes are very useful. You can draw as many different sections as is convenient (different thicknesses or modes) and use add surface to connect them all together. Editing is very easy with the reshape tool.

Offset tool....I think that in improving other functionality of the tool sometime aroung V10, they introduced some unexpected behavior. This is very common in software development. The new tool is better in every scenario....until it's used in one specific way, then gotcha!

After a very interesting read, I now know when and when not to use the offset tool.

I am not an architect

Charles

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I'm still waiting to hear back from the engineer on the second fix, but will report back at this thread when I know more...

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ccroft: ...use add surface to connect them all together. Editing is very easy with the reshape tool.

Of course, I didn?t think of that; they?re just shapes and can be dealt with in the same way.

Another thing I like to do is draw temporary rectangles or other shapes and use them to clip surfaces down to size. I can then discard them. It?s easier than fussing with those little corner thingies (handles).

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... in architecture at least, it doesn?t make any difference.

With a wall thickness typically of 5? or more, the length of the line would have to be very short indeed to cause the problem, and that never happens...

Don't forget about roof plans -- the convenient way that I do it is offsetting the outline (polygon) of the exterior walls, aka "footprint" of the building.

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Polygonal AKA is now fixed in 12.5! Wooohooooo! laugh.gif

I'm impressed that now the same offset command also works for walls! This opens up immense possibilities for quicker floor plan creation. The only (new) problem is that the AKA phenomenom is now occurring for wall offsets! And the short wall doesn't keep its full height -- both relatively minor bugs. All in all, a vast improvement.

Kudos to Robert Anderson and NNA! THank you!

walloffsetxo2.gif

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just noticed this thread and remember a short 10" thick foundation wall guide line being offset incorrectly. Almost made a big mess but I caught it before it went out. The following times it happened I manually corrected the problem. I should have reported the bug but just continued working. Great that it is fixed.

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