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Absolute control joining wall junction components


Christiaan

Question

In the UK new regulations with regard to sound attenuation mean that the configuration of cavity wall junctions has become very important. We use what are called Robust Details, which, once certified, negate the need for comprehensive (and expensive) sound testing.

It's critical enough that we've deemed it necessary to show these junctions accurately on 1:50/1:100 plans.

The following images show the kinds of junctions we need to convey. There's also this one, which is much the same thing.

These examples were drawn by using a group of polygons and lines drawn over top of the walls. Not only does this make for much work (especially when it comes to modifying them) but it also creates less than ideal DXF exports. So out latest wishlist item is absolute control when joining wall junction components.

wall_junction_1.png

wall_junction_2.png

wall_junction_3.png

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22 answers to this question

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Why show these on such small scale plans? This is a little like drawing every wall stud in the US. Why wouldn't "typical" details work?

If there was some situation where incorrectly positioned studwork could potentially cost tens of thousands of pounds in sound testing or reconstruction, or refused building regulation applications, and we could graphically convey the correct information on plan then we would probably want that ability also Robert.

The reason referring someone to a detail isn't a good solution is because the 1:50/1:100 drawings actually conflict with the details (and we've experienced problems in this regard). The only way, currently, to avoid this conflict on our drawings is to either draw the junctions manually, as explained above, or to remove all the hatching from the walls on the 1:50/1:100 drawings. Both options are less than ideal.

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Christiaan - I am guessing that you guys are drawing at 1:50 scale (~1/4" scale) which is why you want to show the fire blocking piece. Why not draw them using the Pillar Tool. That way they will be 3D and not 2D.

Actually I should have taken the fire protection off the above examples Mike. I didn't mean to imply that we want the Wall Tool to draw these. We're happy to draw these as simple polygons because they're easily repeatable and don't cause problems with DXF exports.

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To achieve what you want might mean having to draw the wall leafs individually. Becomes a bit tricky with doors and windows but not impossible. You would have to insert them into one leaf and then insert an opening in the other leaf in the required location. Would be a lot slower.

Edited by mike m oz
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To achieve what you want might mean having to draw the wall leafs individually. Becomes a bit tricky with doors and windows but not impossible. You would have to insert them into one leaf and then insert an opening in the other leaf in the required location. Would be a lot slower.

This would be completely unworkable Mike (workarounds like this are only viable in a one person practice). We'd prefer the Wall Tool to have this capability built in. In the mean time we'll probably keep drawing the junctions manually and put up with the problems mentioned.

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Christiaan - I don't know of any program that can do the complex junctions you are showing with its composite walls.

Neither do I, but then I only know Vectorworks. I don't understand your point.

Are these real situations? I do some work with a UK architect and I have never come across anything like them.

Ur, okay you got me. I made it all up. I thought I'd just waste everyone's time.

Seriously though, why are you asking me this question? Obviously they're real situations, as clearly explained in my first post.

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Christiaan

- I think what you are asking for may be next to impossible for any program to achieve in a composite wall. Individual walls yes, composite walls no.

- I am trying to understand the construction rationale for what you have drawn. Building is mostly logical and I cannot deduce the logic behind what you have drawn. PLease enlighten me.

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Mike, I actually think it might be possible to do this. The cavity joins Christiaan is looking for are basically analogs of the wall join variations, so I assume that the functions for these commands are already more-or-less written. I was frankly pretty amazed when we got the cavity join feature, so it wouldn't surprise me if NNA is able to come up with a solution.

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Pete - you may be right, but the component join capability (aka cavity join in VW 11 and earlier) works okay when you have components that are at angles to each other. I don't know how you get it to work with end to end junctions like in Christiaan's first two examples. VW cannot handle wall end to end junctions satisfactorily when you have different wall types/widths so components might be even harder.

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I think what you are asking for may be next to impossible for any program to achieve in a composite wall.

I'm really puzzled Mike. Are you suggesting you understand programming, and that your understanding of programming says to you that this feature will never be achieved because it's "impossible"?

I am trying to understand the construction rationale for what you have drawn. Building is mostly logical and I cannot deduce the logic behind what you have drawn. Please enlighten me.

Are you having a laugh? What in my first post do you not understand about Robust Details?

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Guys I'm not tying to offend you by asking these questions, I am just tying to understand the logic behind the requirements shown. The noise attenuation bit is fine and as Christiaan state above "Actually I should have taken the fire protection off the above examples Mike. I didn't mean to imply that we want the Wall Tool to draw these. We're happy to draw these as simple polygons because they're easily repeatable and don't cause problems with DXF exports."

This leaves the wall junctions as the problem. The insulated cavities are relatively straightforward as the noise attenuation can be drawn over the top of them as Christiaan describes above. The end to end end butt joint past the junction is the one I think would be difficult to achieve.

Edited by mike m oz
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Guys I'm not tying to offend you by asking these questions.

Sure, but it's very annoying to have a thread filled up with questions that have already been answered.

The end to end end junction past the junction past is the one I think would be difficult to achieve.

I don't understand why you think this opinion is important enough to state though. Even if you were a programmer and, as a programmer, even if you did think it would be difficult to achieve, would this really matter? Surely it only matters what NNA programmers think? That's the whole point of posting to the wishlist forum.

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Walls are component sub-assemblies with variable structural ratings.

Attached to the wall and within the wall subassembly are other subassemblies.

Exterior subassemblies are relatively easy to model separately from the wall.

As Christiaan notes , its the interior wall subassemblies which cause all manner of headaches & manipulations to present properly on plan/sect/elev/det/iso.

The Wall PIO needs to be more receptive and sensitive to the 'embedding' of subassembly containers such as thermal, sound attenuation, fire blocking, and sensor systems.

Similar issues were resolved during the original creation of the Win/Door PIO.

Evolution of the Wall Tool requires the ability to detect & model cavity subassemblies as PIOs.

Once again > Christiaan is right on with this wish

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