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Multi-processor aware exporting


Christiaan

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Just to clarify, export plug in to Artlantis was developed by/for Abvent and NNA has no responsiblity over its workings/updates etc.

On my WindowsXP machine with Hyper threading enabled it only ever uses 50% cpu usage when exporting to Artlantis. I can let it happily export in the background whilst I do other things.

Maybe, and I only say maybe, its a OS issue.

Alan

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Yeah it could be an OS issue. Do you have Artlantis on Mac OS X to test it?

With regard to who has responsibility, it's my understanding that the Artlantis export plugin relies on some Vectorworks export technology. I'm assuming, rightly or wrongly, that Vectorworks "export technology" deals with such things as how many processors it can use.

For instance, the developers point to Vectorworks technology as being the reason you can only export classes with 32 characters or less (which, admittedly, Katie has said is not the case and that the problem lies at Abvent's end):

http://www.artlantis.com/support/forum/read.php?fid=atl_import_us&mes=340

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I'm not in my office, at work, full time, which is were I use Macs, but if I get time when next in I'll take a look.

Exporting times seem in my opinion to be about the same, don't notice a great deal of difference, but never done a side by side comparison.If anything the Mac feel slightly, and only by about half a minute if that, faster. But if its grabbing 100% CPU usage then that may explain it.

Also at the moment I wouldn't know on OSX were to look for CPU usage graphs etc. like the Windows Task Manager in XP which gives comprehensive details of what's happening.

It's Artlantis 4.5 in both cases by the way.

Alan

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Its been my experience that whilst using many objects turned into symbols keeps the VW file smaller, as opposed to just duplicate copies of an object, it does extend the export time to Artlantis, so file size in VW does not always equate to file size and exporting time to Artlantis.

It's understandable as the plug in has to reference each object and convert it regardless of how VW sees it.

Interestingly as a side issue VW's Renderworks is capable of using dual processors, and you'll see two render lines in processing on your dual Macs but Artlantis is not.....

Alan

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Its been my experience that whilst using many objects turned into symbols keeps the VW file smaller, as opposed to just duplicate copies of an object, it does extend the export time to Artlantis, so file size in VW does not always equate to file size and exporting time to Artlantis.

It's understandable as the plug in has to reference each object and convert it regardless of how VW sees it.

That's interesting, thanks for the tip.

Interestingly as a side issue VW's Renderworks is capable of using dual processors, and you'll see two render lines in processing on your dual Macs but Artlantis is not.....

Yeap, and Artlantis still kicks Renderworks ass.

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I like Artlantis R because it's relatively easy to use, is fast and produces reaonably good images. I had a quick dabble with C4D once but I tend to pass apps on and try the next one if I can't pick up the gist of them in a few minutes.

My two criticisms of Artlantis are the time it takes to export large models and the fact that the export plugin and the software itself is laden with bugs.

This is the sort of thing we're doing for planning purposes. These images take about 10-20 minutes to render at 2044x1363 px

I tried a Fast Radiosity with Renderworks but it choked so I gave up.

Aerial-View-1.jpg

Aerial-View-2.jpg

Aerial-View-3.jpg

Aerial-View-4.jpg

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Grant

Doubtful if you will be able to get somebody with the same VW file to show it rendered in both programs.

I can maybe send you a image or two done in Artlantis off list and we can also discuss this off list, which i think would be better. No big secrets, just feels it's ethically wrong to be discussing Artlantis and its workings in this context on NNA tech forum.

I would just say that C4D beats both in render quality etc. but I'm still, yes after owning it for a couple of years, not getting to grips with it and continuing to use Artlantis because of its easy of use.

Alan

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I can maybe send you a image or two done in Artlantis off list and we can also discuss this off list, which i think would be better. No big secrets, just feels it's ethically wrong to be discussing Artlantis and its workings in this context on NNA tech forum.

What is immoral about comparing Artlantis with Renderworks on the NNA forum? Surely the important question is, is this information useful to people? If it's wrong to put it here I'm sure NNA will say so (not that I'd be happy about such a judgement).

My images above are modelled in Vectworks. Artlantis is a highly compatible piece of software that integrates with VW and is also an interesting piece of software to compare with NNA offerings. This sort of information is not only highly useful for users of Vectworks, Renderworks and Artlantis but also probably highly useful for developers of Renderworks too (such as Dave Donley). See also:

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB20&Number=60356

I would love to be able to use a NNA rendering package instead of Artlantis, which is the primary reason I post stuff about Artlantis to this forum. Please don't deprive people of information because of your moral assumptions.

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Christiaan,

I agree, especially since NNA & C4D are part of Nemetschek AG.

I first became aware of C4D several years ago thru a special discount offer on the NNA site. There is a steeper learning curve with C4D compared to Artlantis because it is more than a stand alone renderer.

George

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I've done a simple comparison between Renderworks and Artlantis (using Vectorworks > Extras > Samples > PCB Assembly). When you extrapolate these figures to a large model like the one above you can start to see how different these applications are.

Vectorworks:

No live OpenGL preview, only wireframe which itself isn't live as it waits until you've changed your view before redraw.

5 secs to setup view

5 minutes to render (Fast Radiosity)

40 secs to export image (72 dpi, 773x773 pixels, filesize 213KB)

PCB_Assembly-Renderworks.jpg

Artlantis:

Live OpenGL preview

5 secs to export to Vectorworks

10 secs to setup view

14 secs to render/export (Antialiasing low, Raytracing 2, Transparency 6, Shadows, Radiosity, 72 dpi, 800x576 pixels, filesize 92KB ) (or 1024x769 pixels, filesize 126K, took 15 secs)

PCB_Assembly-Artlantis.jpg

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It can only have the possibility of being "immoral" if NNA deem it to be so (how can it be "immoral" if NNA don't think it is?), therefore you're making an assumption on NNA's part, depriving people of info in the process. That's all I'm saying.

I'm also making an assumption of course, although the possiblity of my depraved character didn't occur to me until you suggested it. I've continued on the assumption that your assumption is wrong, in the mean time I'm not depriving anyone of any info. I think I hold the morally superior position. wink.gif

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I feel that the open discussion of ideas, software capabilities/comparisons, done in a civil manor, is very important both to users and NNA. In the thread referred to above, Dave Donley seems open to the process as well. He sees the value of feedback from the VW userbase.

I know of another forum that would ban users (paying customers!) for mentioning a competitor. The only thing that does is drive people away.

George

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee

Hello:

I have no problem listening to helpful suggestions about how to improve our product. I think the wish list forum is the best place for this over the RW forum which should be kept product-specific, but I would prefer to hear more specific suggestions about how to improve RW workflow or RW features over a statement like "just work like X", or "I use X, should I switch to Y?" which is not as useful to NNA.

I do read the Architosh VW forum too, and I would suggest that as a better place to compare non-RW renderers than in the NNA wish list forum.

http://architoshforums.forest.net/forumdisplay.php?f=9

HTH,

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I have never used Renderworks so I can't fairly compare the two, most of my experience of rendering work has been done with Artlantis, admittedly with VW models, but also with Sketch Up to.

It was this that I was refering to in my post to Grant before I got jumped on for having assumed things.

Sure, can't see a problem with discussing what each renderer has to offer in comparison or suggest what Renderworks could have to improve its workflow etc like another render program.

What I was going to do was discuss how I use Artlantis, its functions, easy of use, outputs etc in detail, my experiences with it and under these circumstances, which is what I was refering to, felt it right to do this off the VW forum.

Also from viewing Grant's web site I can see we are in a similiar industry.

Hope that this is now clear.

You know what they say, assume makes an ass out of u and me.

Stay cool ;~)

Alan

Edited by alanmac
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I would prefer to hear more specific suggestions about how to improve RW workflow or RW features over a statement like "just work like X", or "I use X, should I switch to Y?" which is not as useful to NNA.

Understood Dave but the problem is RW doesn't appear to me in its current form to be improved without a fundamental rethink. That's why I say, 'look at Artlantis and achieve what they've achieved.'

Here're are some specific suggestions none the less:

  • Real time navigation with real time feedback when working with large models
  • Much much faster rendering
  • Faster image export
  • 3D game-like navigation (including awareness of floors, walls and gravity, etc.)
  • Texture drag and drop that works (it's still hit and miss)
  • Thumbnail snapshots of saved views
  • Completely overhauled animation tool interface
  • A tabbed Renderworks-specific Tool Palette for tools such as lighting settings, saved views, view settings, texture and colour settings

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