Switching from Mac to PC?

[Flair-Studio]

Hi,

Just wanted to see your thoughts as the latest post on the forum is from 2022. I was thinking to move to PC as honestly I feel very put down by the limitations in the Mac OS echosystem, in particular re. graphic / GPU compatibility, absence of ray tracing, etc, plus the cost which is more than double of a PC. What concerns me more apart the cost, is that these issues are not going to be addressed in the future releases. I am a M1 user and thought that after a while, apple would come to agreements for graphics compatibily, but I don't see this coming in the near future.

 

Anyone has made the switch from Mac to PC recently, what is your experience please, what are the downsides?

THank you

[zoomer]

48 minutes ago, Flair-Studio said:

Anyone has made the switch from Mac to PC recently, what is your experience please, what are the downsides?

 

I was only PC user until Apple's Intel switch and Bootcamp in 2007 and I was very happy with that decision for many years. Because of the difficult Apple Desktop/Pro hardware situation, beginning in 2012, in 2017 I sadly thought I should switch back to Windows. I always kept my Parallels Windows VM to test and follow Windows development and Windows seemed to work well for me also.
But I only tested 3D and CAD/BIM Apps and no other daily tasks. And it was only a VM, so "virtual hardware" stayed basically the same over the years and was maintenanced by Parallels Updates.
So the assumption that I could replace macOS with Win10/11 easily changed quickly when I build my PC in 2018. Hardware (freedom, specs and building) was great and fun of course. But opposed to a VM, I now had to really care about BIOS, Driver and Software Updates again, lots of configuration need, missed lots of macOS included and/or peripheral Software and their quality, felt bad with telemetry or Windows constantly sabotaging my privacy settings or reinstalling Windows Apps that I uninstalled, ...... I quickly realized that I do not want to work on Windows.

 

I also tested quite a bit of Linux. MacOS and Apple environment is still a much better experince for my usage. Currently, with ARM, Apple hardware offers look again reasonable and so I will stay with Apple.
If Apple may get too bad again at one point, I would go with Linux anyway, not Windows.

Edited January 16 by zoomer

[Flair-Studio]

Hi Zoomer

Thanks this is very useful info!

I was thinking to pair the machine I have with a good graphic card PC, which I would use for the more demanding tasks but still operate within Icloud and Macos for let's say a transition time. This is also due to the cost of the new M4s but would give me the opportunity to test windows as well.

 

I was a PC user until 2014, I prefer Macos for everyday tasks & environment but for anything more specific I feel the PC is still better, plus it is interchangeable.

[EAlexander]

Long time Mac user, I switched to PC in 2017 when gpu rendering became a real thing for Cinema4d. No regrets and have never looked back. Working on PC isn't as bad as people make it out to be. That said, the downside is windows itself. Not as nice as Mac OS especially Explorer compared to Finder. Worth it though for higher end internal parts that you can swap out and upgrade yourself (talking tower more than laptops) at a cheaper cost. I love my 4090 RTX and 128 gb of Ram without breaking my budget. 

I'm sure someone will come along and say the exact opposite in the next post. Pc Mac "wars" still rage on. Coke/Pepsi. Canon/Nikon. Gibson/Fender etc. 

[Jeff Prince]

38 minutes ago, EAlexander said:

Long time Mac user, I switched to PC in 2017 when gpu rendering became a real thing for Cinema4d. No regrets and have never looked back. Working on PC isn't as bad as people make it out to be. That said, the downside is windows itself. Not as nice as Mac OS especially Explorer compared to Finder. Worth it though for higher end internal parts that you can swap out and upgrade yourself (talking tower more than laptops) at a cheaper cost. I love my 4090 RTX and 128 gb of Ram without breaking my budget. 

I'm sure someone will come along and say the exact opposite in the next post. Pc Mac "wars" still rage on. Coke/Pepsi. Canon/Nikon. Gibson/Fender etc. 

 

it’s funny, I was a long time PC user of 20+ years and switched to a Mac about the same time.

 

I think the #1 reason I dislike switching back to the PC is the quality of the display for everyday tasks.  Windows rendering of fonts is horrible compared to a Mac, to the point where it is hard to look at.  I took a job with a firm a few months ago and they are PC based, so I’m reminded of this difference everyday.  I don’t think I’m a Mac zealot as I use the PC without much complaint, but my eyes are sensitive to the difference so I end up printing and redlining things a lot more to get my eyes off the screen.

 

I think the optimal solution is to have a rack based PC built to blaze and access it remotely from a Mac 🙂, then you get the best of both worlds.  That’s the domaine of larger firms I suppose, but it sure is nice to have the ability to crush renders or other complex calculations on a separate machine that is purpose built for it and do your daily work on something more refined.  Everything seems to be moving back to a mainframe/client arrangement for big calculations and to save on idle hardware costs.

[zoomer]

4 hours ago, Flair-Studio said:

I was thinking to pair the machine I have with a good graphic card PC, which I would use for the more demanding tasks but still operate within Icloud and Macos for let's say a transition time.

 

I think it is worth a try. Maybe it works well for you.

You can even work on Mac and access the PC remotely by Microsoft Remote Desktop App (in Apple's App Store)

 

I have access to both machines on one desk, both with own monitor and input devices or from one to the other remotely. But somehow I neither bother to switch desk sides nor activate remote access. So for me, still with the weak M1 Mini, Mac experience is still just not bad enough. So I just boot the PC every few months to update Windows and my Linux installations.

🙂

 

[Wesley Burrows]

I am also a longtime MacOS fan, and use that as my daily driver for Vectorworks,  Omnifocus (task management) and most other things, and as ridiculous as it might seem 95% of my information exchanges and screen shot exchanges with colleagues are via iMessages.   

 

I recently got a Windows machine (AMD Ryzen Threadripper Pro 7965WX 4.2GHz 24 Core) for Cinema 4D with dual RTX 4090's because my 2019 Mac Pro (Intel) with 2 AMD Radeon Pro Vega II Duo 32 GB MPX cards. (4 GPUS!)  just can't compete for GPU rendering speeds.   I loathe Windows as an OS,   but for rendering this machine is orders of magnitude faster.     I do have an M3 laptop that Vectorworks runs like a dream on,  and I eventually hope to replace the Intel Mac Pro with an M4 (or whatever it ends up being) Mac Studio this summer.   

 

I currently use a 49" ultra-wide display (32:9) which I can use either machine full screen with (with the monitor acting as a KVM) OR I can run in side by side mode which basically splits the monitor into dual 27" monitors with no bezel between.    In this mode I use Share Mouse to use each machine as an extended display from the other,  so the mouse just seamlessly moves from Mac to PC and back.   It'll even share the clip board between them.    So,   while I wish I could do all this on a single MacOS machine,   this seems to be the best solution for me,  for now.    Until Mac can actually (if ever) compete with NVIDIA cards.

 

-W

Edited January 16 by Wesley Burrows
formatting

[EAlexander]

Yes - Forgot to mention - to Jeff and Wesley's points.  For years, I ran a PC just for VW and Cinema4d rendering and used a Mac for email, browsing, Word, etc.  If you can afford both and have the office space, it's not a bad way to work.

 

Jeff also makes a good point about fonts too - apple definitely has the upper hand here.

Edited January 16 by EAlexander

[Flair-Studio]

1 hour ago, Wesley Burrows said:

I am also a longtime MacOS fan, and use that as my daily driver for Vectorworks,  Omnifocus (task management) and most other things, and as ridiculous as it might seem 95% of my information exchanges and screen shot exchanges with colleagues are via iMessages.   

 

I recently got a Windows machine (AMD Ryzen Threadripper Pro 7965WX 4.2GHz 24 Core) for Cinema 4D with dual RTX 4090's because my 2019 Mac Pro (Intel) with 2 AMD Radeon Pro Vega II Duo 32 GB MPX cards. (4 GPUS!)  just can't compete for GPU rendering speeds.   I loathe Windows as an OS,   but for rendering this machine is orders of magnitude faster.     I do have an M3 laptop that Vectorworks runs like a dream on,  and I eventually hope to replace the Intel Mac Pro with an M4 (or whatever it ends up being) Mac Studio this summer.   

 

I currently use a 49" ultra-wide display (32:9) which I can use either machine full screen with (with the monitor acting as a KVM) OR I can run in side by side mode which basically splits the monitor into dual 27" monitors with no bezel between.    In this mode I use Share Mouse to use each machine as an extended display from the other,  so the mouse just seamlessly moves from Mac to PC and back.   It'll even share the clip board between them.    So,   while I wish I could do all this on a single MacOS machine,   this seems to be the best solution for me,  for now.    Until Mac can actually (if ever) compete with NVIDIA cards.

 

-W

WOW 😮

[zoomer]

2 hours ago, Wesley Burrows said:

I eventually hope to replace the Intel Mac Pro with an M4 (or whatever it ends up being) Mac Studio this summer.

 

Or an (unlikely ?) Mac Pro M4 Extreme coming winter ?

 

(If you have to ask for the price it's not for you)

[Wesley Burrows]

11 minutes ago, zoomer said:

 

Or an (unlikely ?) Mac Pro M4 Extreme coming winter ?

 

(If you have to ask for the price it's not for you)

 

Hah,  IMO,   the Mac Pro became irrelevant when the ability to upgrade GPU's went away.    The current M series one is a mostly an empty shell at more $$$ then an equivalent Studio.   So,  unless that changes,    I don't see much reason for it to exist at all.  (Yes I know there are a few applications that need the PCI-E  card slots)

 

The reason I have the one I do is for rendering,   but it's showing it's age,  and there's really not much of an upgrade path.    And as more time goes on,  I pretty sure there are less and less developers at Apple and even Vectorworks that put much priority on fixing weird issues that mostly pertain to Intel Macs.    My M3 laptop smokes the Mac Pro @ Shaded view in Vectorworks.   Super smooth,    versus Chunky and sometimes hanging entirely.  

 

To the OP's original ask,  the M3 Max does indeed support Ray Tracing,   and there are solid improvements with Redshift in that department,   but it's still got a ways to go. 

Edited January 16 by Wesley Burrows

[Pat Stanford]

Not going to comment on the speed side.

 

But unless you enjoy configuring and troubleshooting computers, make sure you add some money in the budget for a consultants time to keep the PC running and help with troubleshooting drivers, etc. Often not as easy on the PC side as you may be used to on the Mac side. Especially if you are a small organization without any IT support.

[shorter]

Also consider if it is just you, working solo, or if others are sharing files with you, and remain on Macs.

 

Dual platform networks can be problemattic.

 

Server access will need to be SMB, just in case you are still using AFP, and all need to be SMB, but also, you will find it is easy to work on the same file at the same time on Mac and PC due to the way the OS reads the 'lock' files.

 

If you are referencing, file paths will be different, so if you are referencing, fix the referencing to relative path before you start up your PC.

 

Otherwise, fonts as previously mentioned can be fussy on PC.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

I am pro Mac all the way, but it does depend on what you do, or plan to do.  Can you share that with us and it may make it clearer on your needs.

 

If you are not planning to animate heavy files and cost is not an issue, an M3 or soon M4 MacBook Pro would be my choice.  It is just "one stop shopping" normally for the life of the machine.

[zoomer]

33 minutes ago, shorter said:

file paths will be different

 

As the PC was faster and less restricted than the M1 Mini, I once did a larger project VW/C4D on the PC. So just VW and later C4D. Not sure why but somehow on PC the C4D Exchange did not work.
Therefore I had to get back to M1 Mini in VW, for all C4D Exchanges, to save a C4D back to the PC for rendering.

So I also ran into the path problems with textures and references.
Yes, most paths were relative but there were some Library dependencies and especially many paid C4D Materials which hide usually their dependencies and it was a nightmare.

 

If you can strictly separate your daily peripheral usage on Mac from just all demanding 3D/CAD/BIM work on a PC, I think that works great for many.
But for me it already gets uncomfortable when I try to search and preview for textures on Windows and such things that for me it would get a constant ping pong between both machines though.

 

So at the end it would have been much more effective and less stressing if I had stayed with the weak Mini and waited around 3 times longer vs the Ryzen 3950X for the Batch(!) Rendering.

And for everything that is not related to limited raw power, I am happy that I can stay with a Mac anyway.

Edited January 16 by zoomer

[Wesley Burrows]

A couple of further thoughts regarding this.      It all really depends on your objective.    If your main complaint is render speeds in Vectorworks on an M series device,   but otherwise are happy,  I might suggest making low quality test renders, just enough to show you what you need,  but render quickly,  and when you're ready to publish you could use Vectorworks Cloud Services to render HQ without it burdening your machine.

 

I used to be pretty off put by the pricing on Macs,  but they are essentially workstation class machines.    I have some mac laptops from 2011 and 2014,  the only thing I did to them was replace the factory hard drives with SSDs,  and though they aren't able to run some of the newer software,   or keep up in terms of sheer power,   they still work great with no problems for the vast majority of users needs.     I can't remember a time I had a PC that lasted that long and still operated comfortably.    So while PC's "can" be cheaper,   I feel like I've bought more of them in the same time as one Mac.   

 

The PC I just got,  was NOT cheap.  But in the GPU department it smokes any current Mac hardware offering.  It could have been cheaper had I built it myself,   but I don't have time for that anymore,  and I get support the route I went.  I used Puget Systems,   which was a great experience. 

 

I also have spent quite a bit of time trying to make the Windows machine feel more like MacOS.  Partly because I'm using a Mac keyboard on both machines, and I prefer Mac shortcuts.   So keyboard remapping and stuff.   Otherwise it's jarring to switch between OSes.   Found an app called flow that simulates a spotlight like search.    Etc.    

 

The biggest driver of pushing me to get this PC was Redshift/Cinema 4D.     But for Vectorworks and pretty much everything else I do,  I'm happy with my Mac.   (Though as stated earlier,   Shaded view on an M series is vastly superior to my Intel machine)

 

Edited January 17 by Wesley Burrows

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

2 hours ago, Wesley Burrows said:

The biggest driver of pushing me to get this PC was Redshift/Cinema 4D

I am a C4D user, but just use the default renderers, etc.  What does Redshift bring to the table?  How is it with animation?

[Wesley Burrows]

25 minutes ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

I am a C4D user, but just use the default renderers, etc.  What does Redshift bring to the table?  How is it with animation?

I primarily do corporate/concert event lighting/scenic renders.   So being able to “focus” lights with volumetric haze while visualizing the results with IPR (Interactive Preview Render) in near real time is wonderful.   Once you’ve done it,  it’s hard to work any other way.  Redshift isn’t the only renderer capable of this.   Many are,  but the standard renderer is not,  or at least wasn’t last used it.   It’s typically a GPU based renderer feature.   Though Corona also does it and is CPU based. 

 

When I started doing this,  I used the standard renderer, or physical renderer.   And it would take a huge amount of time to get a decent result,  and lots of wasted time rendering just for the result to suck.   Red shift is incredibly fast.    Final renders that would have taken hours at a time for me before, (I remember a Renderworks render I did that took nearly 12 hours).   Granted, hardware has improved, but  I can get superior results now,  at much higher resolutions in 2-3 minutes with denoising.   Or about 10-15 minutes without denoising.   Versus hours long renders.  
 

Though I’ve done a small amount of animation for scenic automation moves,  I primarily deal with stills.

Edited January 17 by Wesley Burrows

[Pat Stanford]

Are you speaking of Windows Wesley?  Because I think Redshift is GPU on Win while still CPU on Mac. But I am not certain of that. On my Mac at least Redshift is basically the same speed as Renderworks, but can provide better quality if configured properly.

[Wesley Burrows]

1 minute ago, Pat Stanford said:

Are you speaking of Windows Wesley?  Because I think Redshift is GPU on Win while still CPU on Mac. But I am not certain of that. On my Mac at least Redshift is basically the same speed as Renderworks, but can provide better quality if configured properly.

 

Redshift will utilize GPU on both Mac and Windows.   I currently use Windows for it,  but my Mac Pro will also use the GPU's in that Machine (In Cinema 4D),   they just aren't as fast as the two RTX 4090s in the Windows Machine.       M series Macs are also able to use the GPU for Redshift.   That said,  Redshift also can use CPU,   but it's no where near as fast.    I'm not sure what Vectorworks uses (CPU or GPU) for Redshift.   In Cinema it defaults to GPU's but can use a Hybrid of both CPU/GPU or any combination you select,   but generally the CPU just slows the whole thing down and isn't true representation of what Redshift has to offer.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

@Wesley Burrows  I thought about redshift when I began my last project that lasted five years.  Twelve Episodes series.  I was worried about how it would react with Dynanics, Mograph (Voronoi Fracture), PryroCluster, etc.  

 

It sounds like it would have been the thing to do, but at the time I could not gamble that two years in, something would go wrong.  Everything needed to be consistent across all the episodes.

 

Thanks for the explanation.

[Ross Harris]

The one thing you will get with a windows PC is epic backwards compatibility with old versions of VW on windows 10/11, not like Apple's scorched earth policy on os hardware compatibility and obsolescence.

 

Apple certainly has the visual aspect sorted - the screens are gorgeous, but that is a huge cost in monitors and with no 27/32“ iMac... 4k on windows certainly needs work..

 

If you go PC, get a custom built gaming rig and avoid the workstation type systems and graphics cards - it's a total waste of money. A machine built with quality parts won't be a constant headache of driver upgrades and config issues. I build my own machines and never touch them once the OS is installed and the drivers are loaded. Windows update will sort most of these and the NVIDIA app will prompt for a driver update when needed. It's fairly slick these days.

 

I have to stay PC because of Revit and other windows only/or better featured apps, and the Twinmotion pathtracer is windows only - and is likely to be for some time; I believe the M4 has ray tracing hardware support now, but due to the legal spat between apple and epic..

The ROI on PC's for me has been excellent - they last for years with only component upgrades like the GPU, but even then it's far between with good top end models.

 

This will all change again when ARM processors make x86 go the way of the dodo..!

Edited January 23 by Ross Harris