Jump to content
  • 1

Symbols (and Plugins) need 'Hole Component' to engage with Slabs


shorter

Question

in other words, the same functionality as the countertop (aka worktop) and drainage tool.

 

We need to be able to create a symbol, that contains a hole component, so that it cuts a hole in a slab, either fully, or partially, using a 2D object or 3D object.

 

Uses include:

 

Stair

Matwell

Rooflight

Repetitive volume carved from a slab, such as a coffer, e.g

 

image.png.a59667ffd36d2ce51b59985456bb539e.png

 

Royal National Theatre, London (Denys Lasdun, Stanton Williams, Haworth Tompkins)

 

Current behaviour does not let you use a Symbol as the 3D geometry in either adding to or subtracting from a slab.

  • Like 2
Link to comment

Recommended Posts

  • 0
11 minutes ago, shorter said:

Current behaviour does not let you use a Symbol as the 3D geometry in either adding to or subtracting from a slab.

 

You can 'insert' a 3D symbol in a Slab using the 'Add 3D Object to Slab' command + if the symbol includes a Hole component that 3D geometry will be clipped from the Slab. I'm still confused about what is it you can't currently do that you want to be able to do. Use 2D geometry as the Hole component...?

Link to comment
  • 0
13 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

You can 'insert' a 3D symbol in a Slab using the 'Add 3D Object to Slab' command + if the symbol includes a Hole component that 3D geometry will be clipped from the Slab. I'm still confused about what is it you can't currently do that you want to be able to do. Use 2D geometry as the Hole component...?

 

Because it's not working for me, that's why!

Have a simple slab.  I have a symbol.  The symbol comprises a 2D rectangle and circle as the 2D representation, and a copy of the rectangale in the 'hole component'.  I have a 3D cylinder representing the SVP.  The rectangle is larger than the SVP, and represents the opening through the slab.

 

Select Symbol and Slab and 'Add' and... nada... 

 

I can see that the slab disappears unless there is a 2D object in the symbol.  It is visible in 2D.  The SVP is visible in 3D, but the slab is nowhere to be seen.  That will catch a few people out, but the steps you describe do not work.

 

It is also very annoying to have to treat the symbol as a modifier, and not be able to select it directly.

Edited by shorter
Link to comment
  • 0

Wow.  Confused.  You said 'Use 2D geometry as the Hole component...'

 

So it's a 3D component we need for the hole component.

 

Thanks.

 

Will give that a go.

 

However, other compliants remain... i.e. not being able ot select symbol.  Means I cannot constraint the symbol to another object, e.g. a dimension.  It would work like symbols inserted into walls.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • 0
3 minutes ago, shorter said:

Wow.  Confused.  You said 'Use 2D geometry as the Hole component...'

 

It was a question. Hence the question mark. 'What is it you are wishing for in this thread? To use 2D geometry in Slabs as the Hole component the same way you can with a Countertop?'.

 

5 minutes ago, shorter said:

However, other compliants remain... i.e. not being able ot select symbol.  Means I cannot constraint the symbol to another object, e.g. a dimension.  It would work like symbols inserted into walls.

 

Yes I agree with this. It is nice the way they've done it with Countertops.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
  • 0

You have said use 2D geometry as hole component in previous posts hence the confusion, but yes, since you are asking... that would be useful. 😉

 

In essence the functionality we have with symbols and walls we need with symbols and slabs.

 

Given a 'lower level object' such as a countertop/worktop has this functionality but an object like a slab does not, is odd.

Link to comment
  • 0
On 12/31/2024 at 1:02 PM, ParkerJames said:

this is a good chore for coders to tackle

The issue I have with VW is that the people who helm the features that direct the coders often completely miss basic/logical functionality, make it convoluted, or just make another tool to make the tool do something the tool should do. Just count how many tools there are to modify walls!

 

2d geometry for making holes - the 'countertop method'. The problem with this is that it cuts a hole right through the object and wouldn't work for something like the image in the original post. The 2d cutting geometry would need to have some kind of depth of cut control, which could create a number of issues to make work right. The implementation in countertops is almost spot on.. it just needs an offset parameter to adjust the position of things like undermount sinks or drain grooves without having to go into the symbol to modify it relative to the insertion point- a logical function and far more user friendly parameter than the only current option of potentially stuffing up a symbol. To make things utterly confusing the groundwork was never laid to rename the cutting functionality of the 2d polygons... Who would think a sink has to be set to 'insert in walls' to cut the countertop!

 

What needs to happen is something like Revit's void object that can be nested in a family that will cut things when inserted. Revit has a whacky implementation to get the void to actually cut,or you can set a default parameter to 'cut with voids when loaded'. VW are so close with the 'wall hole component' in that there should be some way to make a void symbol to create that waffle type pattern like that ceiling non destructivly, or an option to have an object have a void type capability, like the polystyrene pods used in on ground waffle slabs, a flush pull recessed into a door leaf, recessed lighting, skylights, etc... All without having to add an additional bit of geometry... But also leaving the ability to add cutting geometry if a particular hole shape was needed. The major achilles heel here is 'wall hole objects' are limited to a small number of elements and to make them work is destructive.

 

Hopefully this is what the 'openings' feature in the roadmap entails... But that's only for slabs and walls....which would be very shortsighted for the potential uses this can have for roofs and other objects like door leaves, solid modelled objects, etc, etc.

Edited by Ross Harris
Link to comment
  • 0

The difference with a Countertop is that the Hole component will work with 2D or 3D geometry whereas in other cases it can only be 3D geometry. So there is a slight benefit here because if you want to clip a hole all the way through drawing a Rectangle is slightly easier than drawing an Extrude but the benefit isn't enormous. You can still use a 3D shape to do the same job plus of course if the volume you want to subtract is irregular/complex then you'd want to use a 3D object anyway. In a way Countertops have muddied the water somewhat as previously a Hole component was a 3D object + that was it: simple.

Link to comment
  • 0

And the kicker is you can make this stuff, but in VW it's all a one trick pony... I make an object in Revit, I can make it parametric, so I can reuse things multiple times across different procjects.

As this post abely demonstrates it's utterly confusing have now have 2d geometry cutting objects.

 

I've mentioned in other posts that to 'design without limits' there needs to be an environment like the Revit family editor where we can make our own things and have them be parametric so we don't have to rely on the limitations of a tool and mind numbing dialog box based creation that needs to be 'ok'd to see if it's right, be forced to use multiple tools on one thing to make something we want or continually model one-off stuff because what we have previously modelled isn't quite right for a different project... Each time I mention it a VWer will extol the pitfalls of such an environment and that it's 'not where they are heading'. Revit's family editor is extremely liberating .. the only pitfall I've encountered is the time to make something parametric, but that's time you make back in spades by not have to continually model these things.

 

To do something like the ceiling in that original post - in Revit you'd use a slab topping and a beam system under it with a profile family (tha can also be fully parametric should you want to change the beam size) to include the small recess in the centre of each rib - no faffing about with cutting or voiding out a slab. And it will remail fully tweakable should changes crop up (and they usually do). Can't do that in VW without practically starting again...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • 0
2 hours ago, Tom W. said:

The difference with a Countertop is that the Hole component will work with 2D or 3D geometry whereas in other cases it can only be 3D geometry. So there is a slight benefit here because if you want to clip a hole all the way through drawing a Rectangle is slightly easier than drawing an Extrude but the benefit isn't enormous. You can still use a 3D shape to do the same job plus of course if the volume you want to subtract is irregular/complex then you'd want to use a 3D object anyway. In a way Countertops have muddied the water somewhat as previously a Hole component was a 3D object + that was it: simple.

 

It is also counter-intuituve to 'add 3d object to slab' when the primary use is to 'subtract'.

 

While the revit family concept is very powerful, it tends to be the preserve of very few architects, or specialist who's job it is to build content for their practice.

Link to comment
  • 0
3 minutes ago, shorter said:

It is also counter-intuituve to 'add 3d object to slab' when the primary use is to 'subtract'.

 

Well... I think the issue is that the command serves a dual purpose: on the one hand it allows you to add geometry to a Slab in the same manner as Add Solids, and is a companion to the 'Subtract 3D Object from Slab' command which behaves like Subtract Solids, but at the same time it allows you to 'insert' symbols into Slabs. And yes, if that symbol contains a Hole Component that geometry will be subtracted from the Slab, but that's only secondary to the primary function which is inserting the symbol. If all you wanted to do was subtract geometry from the Slab you would use the 'Subtract 3D Object from Slab' command. But I do agree this is all a bit confusing: ultimately what's unintuitive is that to insert a symbol in a Slab you use a command called 'Add 3D Object to Slab' which is at odds with how you do it to a Wall or a Countertop or a Roof.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • 0
1 hour ago, Ross Harris said:

To do something like the ceiling in that original post - in Revit you'd use a slab topping and a beam system under it with a profile family (tha can also be fully parametric should you want to change the beam size) to include the small recess in the centre of each rib - no faffing about with cutting or voiding out a slab. And it will remail fully tweakable should changes crop up (and they usually do).

 

But this would be incorrect in terms of construction.  The waffle slab is one object; an in-situ slab with cambers and falls (it originally had waterproofing applied directly to the slab) with the coffers formed from repetitive void formers.  So to build this correctly, not conceptually as a series of beams, you would want to be able to build the void-former, and carve it from the slab, and control the void former's geometry and array.

Link to comment
  • 0
13 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

Well... I think the issue is that the command serves a dual purpose: on the one hand it allows you to add geometry to a Slab in the same manner as Add Solids, and is a companion to the 'Subtract 3D Object from Slab' command which behaves like Subtract Solids, but at the same time it allows you to 'insert' symbols into Slabs. And yes, if that symbol contains a Hole Component that geometry will be subtracted from the Slab, but that's only secondary to the primary function which is inserting the symbol. If all you wanted to do was subtract geometry from the Slab you would use the 'Subtract 3D Object from Slab' command. But I do agree this is all a bit confusing: ultimately what's unintuitive is that to insert a symbol in a Slab you use a command called 'Add 3D Object to Slab' which is at odds with how you do it to a Wall or a Countertop or a Roof.

 

Consistency of approach is key.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
  • 0
Posted (edited)

It is slow when adding any curved geometry.

 

Placeholder...

 

750mm thick slab.

 

Simple extrusion, 1000 x 1000 x 500mm.

 

Symbol contains 2D geometry for indicating the array of coffers overhead, and 3d hole component only.

 

Screenshot2025-01-01at13_45_23.thumb.png.24f8604f0395de8188247b57a8433307.png

 

With multiple extrude, with 25mm fillet...

 

Screenshot2025-01-01at14_06_09.thumb.png.045c9a386bc0ae2091ba154e6dcba933.png

 

This is approx. 100 'coffers' added to 750mm thick slab.

 

It works but it is slow, and of course, I have no control over the array other than by deleting and repeating the array... or do I?

 

 

Edited by shorter
Link to comment
  • 0
28 minutes ago, shorter said:

It is slow when adding any curved geometry.

 

Placeholder...

 

750mm thick slab.

 

Simple extrusion, 1000 x 1000 x 500mm.

 

Symbol contains 2D geometry for indicating the array of coffers overhead, and 3d hole component only.

 

Screenshot2025-01-01at13_45_23.thumb.png.24f8604f0395de8188247b57a8433307.png

 

With multiple extrude, with 25mm fillet...

 

Screenshot2025-01-01at14_06_09.thumb.png.045c9a386bc0ae2091ba154e6dcba933.png

 

This is approx. 100 'coffers' added to 750mm thick slab.

 

It works but it is slow, and of course, I have no control over the array other than by deleting and repeating the array... or do I?

 

 

What’s all this mm stuf?

lol

Link to comment
  • 0
31 minutes ago, shorter said:

It is slow when adding any curved geometry.

 

Placeholder...

 

750mm thick slab.

 

Simple extrusion, 1000 x 1000 x 500mm.

 

Symbol contains 2D geometry for indicating the array of coffers overhead, and 3d hole component only.

 

Screenshot2025-01-01at13_45_23.thumb.png.24f8604f0395de8188247b57a8433307.png

 

With multiple extrude, with 25mm fillet...

 

Screenshot2025-01-01at14_06_09.thumb.png.045c9a386bc0ae2091ba154e6dcba933.png

 

This is approx. 100 'coffers' added to 750mm thick slab.

 

It works but it is slow, and of course, I have no control over the array other than by deleting and repeating the array... or do I?

 

 

I am not certain what this image is exactly as I don’t use VW for such things, but why not create an object and duplicate an array and then the same perpendicularly and have two separate ‘groups’ that can be ungrouped and tweaked…slab on top.

Link to comment
  • 0

@ParkerJames The image is looking up at the soffit of a slab, as per the Royal National Theatre, and other notable buildings by Denys Lasdun.  I want to be able to control all coffers from a single symbol, which this is, so I can control it's progress more easily through the stages of a project, and build the model, as the slab would be built.  It is a single slab in reality.  BIM models should be built as the building is built.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
  • 0
22 minutes ago, shorter said:

@ParkerJames The image is looking up at the soffit of a slab, as per the Royal National Theatre, and other notable buildings by Denys Lasdun.  I want to be able to control all coffers from a single symbol, which this is, so I can control it's progress more easily through the stages of a project, and build the model, as the slab would be built.  It is a single slab in reality.  BIM models should be built as the building is built.

I agree--my back ground is residential building and remodeling, so from the beginning using VW in 1999, I thought like a builder--from the footing---up.

Curious: coffer as in 'box'. Is the box a symbol and the unit comprised of an array of that symbol?

I am confused because you can't easily modify a symbol without blowing it up.

Link to comment
  • 0
17 hours ago, shorter said:

It is slow when adding any curved geometry.

 

Placeholder...

 

750mm thick slab.

 

Simple extrusion, 1000 x 1000 x 500mm.

 

Symbol contains 2D geometry for indicating the array of coffers overhead, and 3d hole component only.

 

Screenshot2025-01-01at13_45_23.thumb.png.24f8604f0395de8188247b57a8433307.png

 

With multiple extrude, with 25mm fillet...

 

Screenshot2025-01-01at14_06_09.thumb.png.045c9a386bc0ae2091ba154e6dcba933.png

 

This is approx. 100 'coffers' added to 750mm thick slab.

 

It works but it is slow, and of course, I have no control over the array other than by deleting and repeating the array... or do I?

 

 

 

Another option would be to model the coffer section as a 3D Solid then add it to a 250 thk Slab (rather than subtracting the voids). Not sure if this results in a less slow object. Seems ok to me.

 

 

 

Obviously you then don't have the control of the geometry that creating the coffer as a symbol affords (before you say anything, yes I find the whole slab modifier arrangement pretty painful when it comes to modifying things after the fact).

  • Like 2
Link to comment
  • 0
23 hours ago, ParkerJames said:

I agree--my back ground is residential building and remodeling, so from the beginning using VW in 1999, I thought like a builder--from the footing---up.

Curious: coffer as in 'box'. Is the box a symbol and the unit comprised of an array of that symbol?

I am confused because you can't easily modify a symbol without blowing it up.

 

The coffer is the volume extracted from the slab, to reduce weight.  The Romans used it to great effect here...

 

Screenshot2025-01-02at16_15_20.thumb.png.c14664d307b2fef7ebac6086fed5e6a1.png

 

A symbol allows me to vary the geometry of the repetitive volume extracted from the slab.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...