Electrical plan & elevations

[digitalcarbon]

Sometime ago I worked up an electrical system that would allow the the item to also show up in my interior elevation VP as shown.

Place it in plan and pow! it shows up in the interior elevations.

 

I have included my electrical symbol library to hopefully stimulate the possibility of a tool to allow the 3d placement and then a 2d placement w/ the ability to move the 2d text around on the plan as things can get tight.  also need the ability to make anything....so maybe instead of an ELECTRICAL tool, we have a general hybrid tool that allows for the moving of text around and includes a marker in 2d.

 

not really sure how to deal with the infinite # of things that go on a wall in 3d that only needs a marker in top/plan.

 

 

Electrical.vwx

 

[digitalcarbon]

the plan symbols also have Loci that relate to our typical edge distances we have worked out in the office.  

 

Edited December 4, 2024 by digitalcarbon

[digitalcarbon]

with all that said.  we might want to take a lesson from the mechanical cad world (Onshape and I'm sure Solidworks also) they have a way to make things called configurations...its a type of build your own parametric thing....it works with a built in spread sheet etc...so there is no stair tool but you can build a star in 3d that can be adjusted a bit by just changing a few dims with no remodeling on your part, it just readjusts.  this type of work flow should be looked into as it allows the operator to make their own parametric system. 

 

not sure if such a workflow can be introduced to the subject above. 

Edited December 4, 2024 by digitalcarbon

[digitalcarbon]

what is everyone else doing? 

 

 

 

[E|FA]

I've only played with a similar system, and the main difference is that I used Data Tags for the 2D annotations of light fixtures, rather than including them in the Symbol.  This lets you move them around the drawing if needed.

Edited December 4, 2024 by E|FA

[digitalcarbon]

@E|FA can you send a sample file or show pics?

[E|FA]

Here's a sample file.  I don't remember where I got the original light fixture model from, the VW Resource Library or someone else on the forum.  I added the Record and Data Tag.  The 2D/3D symbol is in the design layer, and the Data Tag is in the annotation space of the sheet layer.

 

I was working on this as a proof of concept and have not gone any further.

 

Sample Light Symbol EFA v2024.vwx

[Gadzooks]

 

18 hours ago, digitalcarbon said:

what is everyone else doing? 

 

The image you have here is quite difficult to read - even you describe part of it as 'a bit of a zoo'. The main issue for me would be trying to add text (certainly at that relative size) that remains clear and informative in what can develop into quite 'busy' layouts - even for what would often be regarded as 'simple' domestic - everybody wants loads of appliances and led lighting these days! Maybe a reason to run a series of room-by-room spec sheets so things can be presented at a better scale? The 'Sparks' will no doubt have their own view of your design intent.

 

This subject was raised by @line-weight earlier this year and may help if you've not seen it........

 

 

I also use a similar hybrid symbol solution with an electrical layout key to use to one side of the plans/elevations.

 

@Tom W. I had also found the MK library and made them 'my own' - very useful!

 

@digitalcarbon Hoping this pointer could help you develop your solution. 🙂

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2024 by Gadzooks
lost the ability to type coherently!!

[Tom W.]

32 minutes ago, Gadzooks said:

@Tom W. I had also found the MK library and made them 'my own' - very useful!

 

I thought I recognised @E|FA's pendant 🤣

 

I think they removed all their 3D models a couple of years ago unfortunately. Or at least I couldn't find them when I last looked...

[line-weight]

It's those "zoo" areas that are the main issue. The system I tried using works ok except when you need to manually adjust the location of the 2d symbol for legibility purposes.

 

Especially when you want to make an edit to the layout under time pressure during construction phase of a project (and can't quite remember how you set it all up a couple of months earlier)!

 

I may take a look at @E|FA's file to look at how it works. I'm not a big user of data tags (so far).

[Tom W.]

19 minutes ago, line-weight said:

I may take a look at @E|FA's file to look at how it works. I'm not a big user of data tags (so far).

 

There are no Data Tags in the file.

[line-weight]

4 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

There are no Data Tags in the file.

There is one - in the annotations space of the viewport on the sheet layer.

 

I can see that if I move the light symbol in 3d space, the data tag that's associated with it in the SLVP moves along with it.

 

However... duplicating the symbol does not produce a duplicate symbol with data tag attached. Presumably in this kind of work flow, you'd have to manually associate a data tag with each symbol that appears in the plan viewport.

[Tom W.]

24 minutes ago, line-weight said:

There is one - in the annotations space of the viewport on the sheet layer.

 

I can see that if I move the light symbol in 3d space, the data tag that's associated with it in the SLVP moves along with it.

 

However... duplicating the symbol does not produce a duplicate symbol with data tag attached. Presumably in this kind of work flow, you'd have to manually associate a data tag with each symbol that appears in the plan viewport.

 

Oops I apologise I was looking in the Resource Manager. It isn't styled.

 

You can add Data Tags in annotations using All Eligible Objects mode so just a single click to do all symbols at once, then you can adjust the positions of those that require it.

 

Or you can include the Data Tag in the symbol itself which means it's always there but then you don't have the flexibility of placement in the VP.

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

The advantage of using a Data Tag as per @E|FA's example is that you can use the same symbol to represent a number of different fittings by changing the 'Mark' value in the attached Record. So cut down on the number of different symbols you have in your library.

 

 

[Pat Stanford]

It would certainly be possible to make PIOs that had text in the Top/Plan and only the object in the 3D portion. And even to add a "control point" to the text so you could move it around.

 

But that will always have limitations and is one of the reasons that VW is moving away from having labels as part of objects and recommending the use of Data Tags instead.

 

Perhaps having "red" symbols that contain both the object and the Data Tag so that after placing the object you just need to ungroup to get the separate tag and object?  But that probably would not insert into the wall.

 

Lots of moving parts to consider.

[line-weight]

1 hour ago, Tom W. said:

The advantage of using a Data Tag as per @E|FA's example is that you can use the same symbol to represent a number of different fittings by changing the 'Mark' value in the attached Record. So cut down on the number of different symbols you have in your library.

 

 

I think I'd initially imagined that the Data Tag somehow took the place of the 2d component of the symbol - so it would remain associated with the 3d symbol but could be moved around fairly flexibly in a lighting plan view in order to maintain legibility in complex layouts.

[line-weight]

20 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

It would certainly be possible to make PIOs that had text in the Top/Plan and only the object in the 3D portion. And even to add a "control point" to the text so you could move it around.

 

But that will always have limitations and is one of the reasons that VW is moving away from having labels as part of objects and recommending the use of Data Tags instead.

 

Perhaps having "red" symbols that contain both the object and the Data Tag so that after placing the object you just need to ungroup to get the separate tag and object?  But that probably would not insert into the wall.

 

Lots of moving parts to consider.

 

 

I think I'd want to be able to move more than just the text around.

 

Ideally - placing the 3d symbol in the model would, by default, place (in a plan view) the 2d symbol as shown in the left hand image below. So, at the actual X,Y location of the fitting itself. But I'd be able to grab the symbol and move it somewhere else manually if necessary, like the image on the right. I am imagining it having a kind of "rubber band" connection to its X,Y location, which I've shown as a dotted line here.

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

10 minutes ago, line-weight said:

I think I'd initially imagined that the Data Tag somehow took the place of the 2d component of the symbol - so it would remain associated with the 3d symbol but could be moved around fairly flexibly in a lighting plan view in order to maintain legibility in complex layouts.

 

Well you could do this by including the electrical symbol Top/Plan graphics in the Data Tag + giving the electrical symbol a 2D Locus as the Top Component then attaching the Data Tag en masse using All Eligible Objects Mode.

 

Ok without the rubber band 🙂

Edited December 5, 2024 by Tom W.

[line-weight]

By the way - does the Spotlight bit of VW deal with this kind of issue? I'm entirely unfamiliar with it but it produces schematics doesn't it? Are there any tools in there that already do something like this?

[Tom W.]

Just now, line-weight said:

By the way - does the Spotlight bit of VW deal with this kind of issue? I'm entirely unfamiliar with it but it produces schematics doesn't it? Are there any tools in there that already do something like this?

 

I asked elsewhere whether ConnectCAD could be used for domestic electrical layouts after it was suggested (by someone at VW) that you could but the final answer was kind of 'not really'.

[Tom W.]

See:

 

[Pat Stanford]

20 minutes ago, line-weight said:

I think I'd want to be able to move more than just the text around.

Scope creep before we have even written a line of code. 😉

 

[Tom W.]

3 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

Scope creep before we have even written a line of code. 😉

 

 

Basically Pat we'd like a full blown MEP add-on if you can manage it 😆

[line-weight]

10 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

Scope creep before we have even written a line of code. 😉

 

But actually, being able to move the whole thing around is kind of critical to it being useful, at least from the point of view of dealing with situations where a lot of fittings are crowded into a small area, or are placed vertically above one another.

[E|FA]

42 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

Well you could do this by including the electrical symbol Top/Plan graphics in the Data Tag + giving the electrical symbol a 2D Locus as the Top Component then attaching the Data Tag en masse using All Eligible Objects Mode.

This is the way I would go.  It keeps the object properly located in the 3D model for rendering & elevations, but allows flexibility in the SL Annotations.  The default location of the Data Tag would be used in most cases and only messed with as required for drawing legibility.  If needed, add a "rubber band" line or arrow manually in the Annotations.  No new code needed.

 

Maybe the Wishlist request should be to add leader lines as an option for Data Tags similar to the Callout and bug tools. 

Edited December 5, 2024 by E|FA