What significant improvements are there in VW2025 vs 2022?

[inilegnam]

I've been milking my VW 2022 for all that it's worth, mostly because I despise the SaaS model for this type of software--I believe that when I purchase a software like this, I should own whatever version I bought, and have the freedom/option to not upgrade if I don't see the benefit--but also because it doesn't seem like there is much reason for me to upgrade. I am curious if anyone can reveal that anything revolutionary has been done since 2022. Does the subscription model deliver a better user experience in terms of feature upgrades, speed, etc?

 

Context: The focus of my business is designing productive landscapes e.g. edible landscapes/gardens, homesteads and farms. The plans I produce in VW have a large species diversity, generally some level of grading and earthworks, fences, etc.

 

My main issues with Vectorworks are:

-3D landscapes/plants are a pain to model, and the 3D plant selection feels like it could be WAY better--like having a dynamic 3D model instead of the kinda corny looking camera following 2D model.

-Cut/fill modelling and reporting is cumbersome. I design a lot of landscapes with ponds and other earthworks and need to get basic cut/fill readouts for a given earthwork. I have yet to find a simple way to get the cut and fill for a specific cut/fill operation. I've seen the marketing for the improvements to cut/fill--are they really much of an upgrade?

-2D to 3D leaves a lot to be desired. I basically have to create two separate files if I plan to do any meaningful 3D modeling of a site.

-Fencing--the 2D, and especially 3D--fence modeling capabilities in 2022 leave a LOT to be desired. Does the marketing for the new fence tool live up to the hype?

-Legends--while I've come up with some acceptable workflows for legend creation, it does pain me that you can't simply generate a legend of all of the symbols/classes in a design. Again, I've seen marketing that indicates this has been improved, is that true? Can you really make dynamic legends now?

 

I have been seriously considering switching to Rhinolands (Lands Design) for a couple years now, since it seems to do a lot of these things mentioned much better than VW and they offer a lifetime license. I just dread learning a new software and workflow right now.

 

Any input or first-hand experience is appreciated.

[Jeff Prince]

There have been many improvements to VWX, but nothing earth shattering that making the documentation process more profitable.  With all the changes to the user interface, it seems I have list more time than gained as a long time user.

 

Viewport styles might be the single greatest improvement that actually solves many long standing issues. The  redesign of the color picker was the worst idea ever.

Edited November 9 by Jeff Prince

[Tom W.]

13 hours ago, inilegnam said:

-3D landscapes/plants are a pain to model, and the 3D plant selection feels like it could be WAY better--like having a dynamic 3D model instead of the kinda corny looking camera following 2D model.

 

You don't have to use Image Props in 3D if you don't want to. There's also the Laubwerk Plant Tool + the RenderMall Plant Tool for parametric 3D geometry.

 

13 hours ago, inilegnam said:

-Fencing--the 2D, and especially 3D--fence modeling capabilities in 2022 leave a LOT to be desired. Does the marketing for the new fence tool live up to the hype?

 

The new Fence Tool introduced in VW2024 is a massive improvement on the previous Railing/Fence Tool.

 

13 hours ago, inilegnam said:

-Legends--while I've come up with some acceptable workflows for legend creation, it does pain me that you can't simply generate a legend of all of the symbols/classes in a design. Again, I've seen marketing that indicates this has been improved, is that true? Can you really make dynamic legends now?

 

Graphic Legends are great.

 

13 hours ago, inilegnam said:

-2D to 3D leaves a lot to be desired. I basically have to create two separate files if I plan to do any meaningful 3D modeling of a site.

 

Not sure what this means. Why do you have to create two files...?

 

You don't mention it but in VW2025 there's also the new Curb Tool which is a fairly significant addition, albeit one that is still slightly rough around the edges at the moment.

 

I personally would find it pretty painful going back to VW2022 but I guess it all depends how you work + what tools/features you're using. There are many other improvements which for me are crucial but perhaps less so for you.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

16 hours ago, inilegnam said:

I have been seriously considering switching to Rhinolands (Lands Design) for a couple years now,

The Rhinoceros is not always greener on the other side of the Fencing tool.  

 

VW 2023, 2024, 2025 have a 3D dragger tool.  This alone give VW's a significant increase in 3D capability.

 

I have used this product since its inception in 1985.  The environment was Federal Research Laboratory, focused heavily on 3D activities.  I often start this type of post with I am not an Architect, Landscape designer, lighting person, etc, by college degree, but I have worked and understand all these activities and some that have yet to become known disciplines.

I had access to every 3D application available it I wanted it, many were just offered for free.  A-CAD, Form Z, C4D, etc.  The projects often included teams of college/university students working with us on summer terms.  

 

There was alway something I could pick from another software that did a specific function better or perhaps quicker is a better word, than Vectorworks.  But, there was not a product that could do the entire job as well and it all stayed within Vectorworks.

 

Pipeline.  The only other product I used was C4D and this was before it became part of Nemetschek like Vectorworks and the "Send to C4D' function.  I highly recommend this combination if you are thinking of expanding your stable of software.

[Poot]

On 11/8/2024 at 9:22 PM, inilegnam said:

 

My main issues with Vectorworks are:

-3D landscapes/plants are a pain to model, and the 3D plant selection feels like it could be WAY better--like having a dynamic 3D model instead of the kinda corny looking camera following 2D model.

 

There are two general issues:

1 - Detailed 3d plants in any serious quantity will  really slow down and bloat a project file. I don't remember when Laubwerk plants came along, after 2022 I think, and while they are very nice, they can make things super heavy because they are so detailed. Also, if you really want a broader selection of species, you will have to buy from Laubwerk, Globe plants, or others.

2- This is why people use visualisation software (twinmotion, lumion, etc) which can bring much higher detail models, texturing, and lighting without a huge project file. If visualisation is important, you would be best using some additional software, regardless of whether you are using Rhino (e.g. vray) or anything else. This is one reason why large firms outsource to visualisation firms...

 

On 11/8/2024 at 9:22 PM, inilegnam said:

-2D to 3D leaves a lot to be desired. I basically have to create two separate files if I plan to do any meaningful 3D modeling of a site.

 

Not sure why you have 2 separate files. The whole point of using software like VW (vs. autocad) is that your 2d plans function in 3d when you've got a site model attached. As far as I have experienced, its the best at combining the process of 2d sketching/drafting with detailed 3d site modelling - where grading tools are both precise and easy to use. Not being snarky, but have you tried any VW university or training on this? It should be a very smooth process (though 3d modelling is always much more work than 2d), and I haven't seen another program where you get a better combination of 2D plan/illustration with the 3d functionality tied in within easy reach. 

 

On 11/8/2024 at 9:22 PM, inilegnam said:

-Fencing--the 2D, and especially 3D--fence modeling capabilities in 2022 leave a LOT to be desired. Does the marketing for the new fence tool live up to the hype?

I would say its a good improvement - but don't use it much in my work.

On 11/8/2024 at 9:22 PM, inilegnam said:

-Legends--while I've come up with some acceptable workflows for legend creation, it does pain me that you can't simply generate a legend of all of the symbols/classes in a design. Again, I've seen marketing that indicates this has been improved, is that true? Can you really make dynamic legends now?

As mentioned by @Jeff Prince, the improved ability to now save viewport styles, which are truly very useful to avoid redoing visual styles for different types of plans/layouts. This is especially so for planting plans saved as viewport styles...assuming you have good/consistent layer hygiene 🙂  I thought legends updated automatically well before 2022....so not sure where the  missing dynamic function for you is coming from. Not super experience dhere though 🙂 

 

 

On 11/8/2024 at 9:22 PM, inilegnam said:

 

I have been seriously considering switching to Rhinolands (Lands Design) for a couple years now, since it seems to do a lot of these things mentioned much better than VW and they offer a lifetime license. I just dread learning a new software and workflow right now.

 

In general, the last several years have been very good for Landmark, offering very meaningful upgrades/improvements. While I am not sure the new to 2025 'curb' tool (it is much more than that) is very useful for your specific work, the updates to quick pickup/paint of settings for landscape/hardscapes, hardscape improvements, and a few other things like improved rules for overlapping site modifiers and grade limits make enough of a difference for me.

 

Rhino is by far the best for license costs since it offers perpetual licenses. I think Rhinolands is a pretty good plugin - but would say that it lacks a few of the most useful site modelling, planting and documentation features in VW (e.g. hardscape, roads, planting modes/landscape area custmization, grade networks). If budget was a top concern, you would definitely do well with it, and nurbs based site modelling is the way to go. You dont have GIS or ability to work with coordinates....but that isn't always important. Might not also be the greatest for importing/exporting files between programs for collaboration, but YMMV. I also love command lines...but

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9 by Poot

[Jeff Prince]

Just for the record, I have no trouble site modeling, doing 3D trees, and typical landscape documentation in old versions of VWX. Or the latest.  I think 2019 was probably the best for the buck upgrade (if that was the release they fixed the 3D  engine to handle real time 3D work).  It is rare for a new feature to be so amazing that it makes your business more profitable.  Boring stuff like the increasing the 2d performance of the graphics engine, increased site modeling calc speed, ease of use for the resource manager, and reducing clicks or mousing for operations is where the positive impacts are felt.  Fence and curb tools are improving, but how much of you time is spent doing those?  I would take a fast PDF burner that makes small file sizes natively over those tools.  I would take a roadway tool that can grade based off cross sections over yet another user interface upgrade.

 

The reality is, you have few choices when it comes to landscape modeling + documentation.  Vectorworks is the best of the bunch, once you learn how to use it.  They really need to upgrade the irrigation tools and the ability to make walls with vertical component layering IMHO to stay competitive.  I love Rhino, but even with the landscape package, it’s not a suitable replacement for VWX or Civil3D+LandFX+Sketchup if you are doing professional documentation.

[Claes Lundstrom]

I noted that the 2022 seems to have a problem running on MacOS Sequoia on an M1 Mac. It lags terrible and does not update actions on the screen as it used to. Have to try it on another M1 though to check. It works on the 2025 on the same Mac. 

[zoomer]

1 hour ago, Claes Lundstrom said:

I noted that the 2022 seems to have a problem running on MacOS Sequoia on an M1 Mac.

 

Unfortunately that's what's expected.

VW 2024 maybe the last VW version getting Sequoia support.

Earlier VW versions may or may not work well or at all.

 

And the next macOS is already just 10 months away ....

[Jonathan Pickup]

On 11/9/2024 at 9:22 AM, inilegnam said:

 

-Cut/fill modelling and reporting is cumbersome. I design a lot of landscapes with ponds and other earthworks and need to get basic cut/fill readouts for a given earthwork. I have yet to find a simple way to get the cut and fill for a specific cut/fill operation. I've seen the marketing for the improvements to cut/fill--are they really much of an upgrade

 

 

I tag the site modifiers so that a worksheet can be created generating the cut and fill calculations for each site modifier. This has been available for several versions.

 

when you upgrade, it not just 2025, but 2023, 24 and 25. There have been a lot of improvements in those versions

 

 

[inilegnam]

On 11/8/2024 at 8:34 PM, Jeff Prince said:

There have been many improvements to VWX, but nothing earth shattering that making the documentation process more profitable.  With all the changes to the user interface, it seems I have list more time than gained as a long time user.

 

Viewport styles might be the single greatest improvement that actually solves many long standing issues. The  redesign of the color picker was the worst idea ever.

Thanks, Jeff. I figured there wasn't anything earth shattering about the upgrades. Appreciate your input!

[inilegnam]

On 11/9/2024 at 5:00 AM, Tom W. said:

 

You don't have to use Image Props in 3D if you don't want to. There's also the Laubwerk Plant Tool + the RenderMall Plant Tool for parametric 3D geometry.

 

 

The new Fence Tool introduced in VW2024 is a massive improvement on the previous Railing/Fence Tool.

 

 

Graphic Legends are great.

 

 

Not sure what this means. Why do you have to create two files...?

 

You don't mention it but in VW2025 there's also the new Curb Tool which is a fairly significant addition, albeit one that is still slightly rough around the edges at the moment.

 

I personally would find it pretty painful going back to VW2022 but I guess it all depends how you work + what tools/features you're using. There are many other improvements which for me are crucial but perhaps less so for you.

Good to know about the new 3D plant options, that the new fence tool really is an upgrade, and that there are graphic legends now.

 

What I meant was that I make one file that has a referenced site model. Then, for 3D visualization within VW, I make a separate file including both the site model and the planting layout. Maybe it's just a wacky, inefficient workflow I've developed, but it keeps my files running smoothly.

 

Having never used anything beyond 2022 I have no reference, so ignorance is bliss, I guess! But, it's good to know there are meaningful improvements.

[inilegnam]

On 11/9/2024 at 8:17 AM, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

The Rhinoceros is not always greener on the other side of the Fencing tool.  

 

VW 2023, 2024, 2025 have a 3D dragger tool.  This alone give VW's a significant increase in 3D capability.

 

I have used this product since its inception in 1985.  The environment was Federal Research Laboratory, focused heavily on 3D activities.  I often start this type of post with I am not an Architect, Landscape designer, lighting person, etc, by college degree, but I have worked and understand all these activities and some that have yet to become known disciplines.

I had access to every 3D application available it I wanted it, many were just offered for free.  A-CAD, Form Z, C4D, etc.  The projects often included teams of college/university students working with us on summer terms.  

 

There was alway something I could pick from another software that did a specific function better or perhaps quicker is a better word, than Vectorworks.  But, there was not a product that could do the entire job as well and it all stayed within Vectorworks.

 

Pipeline.  The only other product I used was C4D and this was before it became part of Nemetschek like Vectorworks and the "Send to C4D' function.  I highly recommend this combination if you are thinking of expanding your stable of software.

Fair points! There are not unicorn software packages, are there? But, I have been suspecting that VW does do most things pretty well--plus I am already so familiar with it.

[inilegnam]

On 11/9/2024 at 5:00 PM, Poot said:

 

There are two general issues:

1 - Detailed 3d plants in any serious quantity will  really slow down and bloat a project file. I don't remember when Laubwerk plants came along, after 2022 I think, and while they are very nice, they can make things super heavy because they are so detailed. Also, if you really want a broader selection of species, you will have to buy from Laubwerk, Globe plants, or others.

2- This is why people use visualisation software (twinmotion, lumion, etc) which can bring much higher detail models, texturing, and lighting without a huge project file. If visualisation is important, you would be best using some additional software, regardless of whether you are using Rhino (e.g. vray) or anything else. This is one reason why large firms outsource to visualisation firms...

 

 

Not sure why you have 2 separate files. The whole point of using software like VW (vs. autocad) is that your 2d plans function in 3d when you've got a site model attached. As far as I have experienced, its the best at combining the process of 2d sketching/drafting with detailed 3d site modelling - where grading tools are both precise and easy to use. Not being snarky, but have you tried any VW university or training on this? It should be a very smooth process (though 3d modelling is always much more work than 2d), and I haven't seen another program where you get a better combination of 2D plan/illustration with the 3d functionality tied in within easy reach. 

 

I would say its a good improvement - but don't use it much in my work.

As mentioned by @Jeff Prince, the improved ability to now save viewport styles, which are truly very useful to avoid redoing visual styles for different types of plans/layouts. This is especially so for planting plans saved as viewport styles...assuming you have good/consistent layer hygiene 🙂  I thought legends updated automatically well before 2022....so not sure where the  missing dynamic function for you is coming from. Not super experience dhere though 🙂 

 

 

 

In general, the last several years have been very good for Landmark, offering very meaningful upgrades/improvements. While I am not sure the new to 2025 'curb' tool (it is much more than that) is very useful for your specific work, the updates to quick pickup/paint of settings for landscape/hardscapes, hardscape improvements, and a few other things like improved rules for overlapping site modifiers and grade limits make enough of a difference for me.

 

Rhino is by far the best for license costs since it offers perpetual licenses. I think Rhinolands is a pretty good plugin - but would say that it lacks a few of the most useful site modelling, planting and documentation features in VW (e.g. hardscape, roads, planting modes/landscape area custmization, grade networks). If budget was a top concern, you would definitely do well with it, and nurbs based site modelling is the way to go. You dont have GIS or ability to work with coordinates....but that isn't always important. Might not also be the greatest for importing/exporting files between programs for collaboration, but YMMV. I also love command lines...but

 

I have a Twinmotion license and have learned how to use it--the workflow from VW is not great in my experience thus far, having to replace all of the plant symbols. Albeit, it wasn't that bad for the nice looking renderings I did get. I guess I just want my cake and to eat it too.

 

As I mentioned to another poster, I have one file where I reference the site model and then for 3D visualization I combine the plant layout in the same file with the site model. So far, it has been the most pain-free workflow to create manageable file size and speed. But fair point, no I have been "self taught" on VW since 2015, so surely I have formed a lot of bad habits or goofy solutions.

 

I appreciate your input--the marketing for Rhinolands is quite compelling, but so is any software marketing. I had a friend who joined a LA program and he said Rhino/Lands is the standard now for many LA university programs. I do rely very heavily on VW GIS/CRS functionality, so that is another concern of trying a new software. I go between QGIS and VW from start to finish on most of my projects.

Edited November 11 by inilegnam

[inilegnam]

On 11/9/2024 at 7:03 PM, Jeff Prince said:

Just for the record, I have no trouble site modeling, doing 3D trees, and typical landscape documentation in old versions of VWX. Or the latest.  I think 2019 was probably the best for the buck upgrade (if that was the release they fixed the 3D  engine to handle real time 3D work).  It is rare for a new feature to be so amazing that it makes your business more profitable.  Boring stuff like the increasing the 2d performance of the graphics engine, increased site modeling calc speed, ease of use for the resource manager, and reducing clicks or mousing for operations is where the positive impacts are felt.  Fence and curb tools are improving, but how much of you time is spent doing those?  I would take a fast PDF burner that makes small file sizes natively over those tools.  I would take a roadway tool that can grade based off cross sections over yet another user interface upgrade.

 

The reality is, you have few choices when it comes to landscape modeling + documentation.  Vectorworks is the best of the bunch, once you learn how to use it.  They really need to upgrade the irrigation tools and the ability to make walls with vertical component layering IMHO to stay competitive.  I love Rhino, but even with the landscape package, it’s not a suitable replacement for VWX or Civil3D+LandFX+Sketchup if you are doing professional documentation.

I do wish VW would rely more on the graphics card for rendering--any improvements here? And I have given up many times on exporting to PDF as the file sizes were unreasonable and the time it took to make the PDF are usually insane.

 

It's good to get confirmation that VW probably is the best option for what I do. I'm going to be speaking with a Rhinolands pro here soon that works in a similar niche to me, so I'll be curious to pick her brain about some my questions. Considering I am almost a decade deep with VW (and QGIS being my other essential software), the thought of learning something new or adding more software to my workflow is not very exciting.

[inilegnam]

On 11/10/2024 at 3:27 AM, Claes Lundstrom said:

I noted that the 2022 seems to have a problem running on MacOS Sequoia on an M1 Mac. It lags terrible and does not update actions on the screen as it used to. Have to try it on another M1 though to check. It works on the 2025 on the same Mac. 

I abandoned Apple products years ago after two laptop failures from known issues. Haven't looked back since switching back to PC after 16 years of apple. Built a very powerful machine for under $1200--that'll get you a base model Macbook these days which has soldered RAM and SSD...

[inilegnam]

23 hours ago, Jonathan Pickup said:

 

 

I tag the site modifiers so that a worksheet can be created generating the cut and fill calculations for each site modifier. This has been available for several versions.

 

when you upgrade, it not just 2025, but 2023, 24 and 25. There have been a lot of improvements in those versions

 

 

I'll have to look into this method--would save me a lot of headache. And fair point! Guess I'll be sucking it up for the SaaS sooner than later.

[Poot]

5 hours ago, inilegnam said:

I do wish VW would rely more on the graphics card for rendering--any improvements here? And I have given up many times on exporting to PDF as the file sizes were unreasonable and the time it took to make the PDF are usually insane.

 

 

Unfortunately, outside of the direct rendering, most 3d work within CAD programs benefit more from having a very powerful single CPU - versus many CPU's with multithreading, because the processing of the operations happens sequentially, not in tandem. Rendering of course can make use of GPU's and multiple cores, but I think that there is another thread that also deals with improving your rendering via settings (some non-intuitive choices) https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/51267-not-so-final-quality-renderworks/#comments

 

I would also LOVE to have the laubwerk plants work well within VW, but there are some reliability issues and having any plants with higher level of detail blows up your file size (I put 4 multistem birch trees, alone, at medium detail with textures and file is at 40mb - only getting larger for each tree added. Maybe @Laubwerk can chime in on future news... but it does make it hard to use them in practice outside of very tight camera perspectives. BIM/CAD software is also not usually great at visualisation for reasons I don't fully grasp but can appreciate. The plant models are pretty good though.

 

5 hours ago, inilegnam said:

 

I have a Twinmotion license and have learned how to use it--the workflow from VW is not great in my experience thus far, having to replace all of the plant symbols. Albeit, it wasn't that bad for the nice looking renderings I did get. I guess I just want my cake and to eat it too.

 

As I mentioned to another poster, I have one file where I reference the site model and then for 3D visualization I combine the plant layout in the same file with the site model. 

 If you are going to use things like laubwerk plants, or heavy 3d objects, this can be a good strategy. Or perhaps you have an insanely huge number of plants? Otherwise, for actual project design, having everything in one file works swell 🙂

Edited November 11 by Poot
update

[Dave Donley]

The public roadmap items that have shipped are highlighted on this page, the roadmap items are geared toward the more significant re-engineering or brand new features: https://www.vectorworks.net/en-US/public-roadmap/updates

 

The release notes for each version are here, more complete list of changes in all areas:

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/articles.html/articles/tech-bulletins/&d=1&sortby=record_saved&sortdirection=desc