Custom parametric 2D Symbols/PIO

[heavy manners]

Hello,

 

I would really like to see some version of a parametric symbol, at least in 2D, with abilities to create parameters like dimensions and angles linked to certain geometry within the symbol, that can be set to instance or style, much like how families work in Revit or smart blocks in AutoCAD.

 

Attached is a sketch of an example using a door (but I can think of a million other uses): I can draw my geometry, lock it to other geometry (visible or not) by linear or angular dimensions, and link these dimensions to parameters that are accessible from outside the symbol, set to instance or style, just like a PIO. I also want to the able to enter data like, in the case of a door, ID, fire rating, acoustic rating, etc., again set by instance or by style.

 

I have done this in Marionette. It's very cumbersome, overly complicated and still parameters cannot be set by style. I want to be able to create a symbol on the spot, make all the things described above, and save it as a PIO or a symbol.

 

This is such a basic thing any modern BIM software should offer and I cannot for the life of me figure out how this is still not the case in Vectorworks in 2024.

 

Thank you!

[heavy manners]

Bumping this to save it from drowning.

[grant_PD]

There's the door tool, window tool, etc. Don't those do what you're asking for?  

[cberg]

That’s an interesting idea. How does the tool work in Revit/Acad?

Edited October 15 by cberg

[spettitt]

I said this when I first moved from AutoCAD (for dynamic/smart hoist symbols, in my case), but it was pointed out that having one symbol resource that can represent multiple objects isn't really a thing because you can't have record data pre-attached for all of the variants.

 

I have i.e. 10 hoist symbols in my library, each with the data attached as to manufacturer, model, chain length, whatever. If I have one symbol that can morph in to any of them, I lose the places to put that data.

 

That's unless a dynamic symbol has a lookup table attached to it rather than single records - i.e. a table of all the record fields across the top and all of the variant style definitions down the side.

 

Of course, that depends what the symbol is used for though - using as a vanilla symbol in the drawing (quite a long way from a BIM workflow...!) or used by a PIO, in which case it depends whether it's a style based PIO or symbol-driven, and if the latter, you might need multiple named 2D components...which is what I've had in AutoCAD before.

Edited October 15 by spettitt

[heavy manners]

52 minutes ago, grant_PD said:

There's the door tool, window tool, etc. Don't those do what you're asking for?  

 

We have a 2D workflow so in general no. We use the wall tool to great success but the door and window tools have been laggy and lacking.

 

But in general I think this functionality would extend far beyond the capabilities of these tools. I would like to build lots of small custom PIOs like orientation symbols, cabinets, doors, etc. that won't weigh my file down and that respond to my needs and those of my office. Custom 2D parametrisation would be, I imagine, quite easy to implement but would empower users enormously.

 

33 minutes ago, cberg said:

That’s an interesting idea. How does the tool work in Revit/Acad?

 

In Revit you can link, among other things, geometry dimensions and object visibility to parameters that you can then set by instance or by style (in Revit called a type).

I used this a ton to great success and among everything that Vectorworks lacks this is by far the most annoying thing. BIM workflow is not just 3D, and it's not just ready-made components; it's the ability to attach data to objects and then manage and display it. Record formats are a great start, but the fact that you can't link the data to the geometry nor set it by style or instance really diminishes its potential.

 

32 minutes ago, spettitt said:

I said this when I first moved from AutoCAD (for dynamic/smart hoist symbols, in my case), but it was pointed out that having one symbol resource that can represent multiple objects isn't really a thing because you can't have record data pre-attached for all of the variants.

 

I have i.e. 10 hoist symbols in my library, each with the data attached as to manufacturer, model, chain length, whatever. If I have one symbol that can morph in to any of them, I lose the places to put that data.

 

That's unless a dynamic symbol has a lookup table attached to it rather than single records - i.e. a table of all the record fields across the top and all of the variant style definitions down the side.

 

Of course, that depends what the symbol is used for though - using as a vanilla symbol in the drawing (quite a long way from a BIM workflow...!) or used by a PIO, in which case it depends whether it's a style based PIO or symbol-driven, and if the latter, you might need multiple named 2D components...which is what I've had in AutoCAD before.

 

I guess that I'm really looking for a blend of symbol and PIO functionality: I want the ease of use of a symbol but within it I want to be able to link parameters to geometry and control them via instance or style as described above.

 

I imagine that it could look like this: I can go to a menu, click "create custom PIO" or something and then it would take me to a symbol-like workspace with an origin, and from there I could, say, draw a rectangle, add dimensions to its sides, lock those dimensions to parameters, and then set those parameters by instance or style. So in 3D, for example, if I wanted to make a simple bench or whatever, I could model the geometry, and then set, say, the height by style and the length by instance, and then make a table giving me all the custom lengths that is to be fabricated. Supplemented with principle drawings this would be a great way to control, in this case, benches in a project without the need for a specific dedicated bench tool.

 

This is just one example and I could think of many others, but the ultimate benefit of such a functionality would be that there would be little need to figure out uses beforehand as the users themselves would tinker with it, much like Marionette but without all the unnecessary fuss (and I say this as an experienced Grasshopper user). I want my colleagues to be able to create simple objects like these without having to connect nodes, just, again: link geometry to parameters, set parameters by instance or style, and tag or table them. In my mind it shouldn't be that difficult, but I'm no software developer and I'm happy to discuss the pitfalls.

 

Combined with Vectorworks' fantastic graphics and display capabilities it would easily turn into my favourite software as opposed to currently being the most frustrating one I've used.

[line-weight]

Being able to do this would absolutely be useful.

 

There are lots of situations where I just want something relatively simple but the built-in PIOs don't match my needs.

 

For me, it would be great if it were possible in 3d too although I can see that this could become complex.

[heavy manners]

I'm happy to discuss this in detail to anyone from Vectorworks who's interested. Together with the flexibility of record formats and data mapping, and the graphic capabilities already in place, it would turn Vectorworks into a super useful tool for so many types of projects and scales. Users are creative, and with a function as basic and flexible as this there's no end to what people would do with it.

[line-weight]

1 hour ago, heavy manners said:

I'm happy to discuss this in detail to anyone from Vectorworks who's interested. Together with the flexibility of record formats and data mapping, and the graphic capabilities already in place, it would turn Vectorworks into a super useful tool for so many types of projects and scales. Users are creative, and with a function as basic and flexible as this there's no end to what people would do with it.

 

Yup, VW's flexibility is one of it's greatest strengths, while many of its built-in tools are its greatest weaknesses. Giving us the ability to build our own parametric objects would exploit that strength and help bypass those weaknesses.

[erminio]

Me too, being very interested in these so called AutoCAD Dynamic blocks

I'm forced to use AutoCAD (making me crazy) for certain customers and dynamic blocks are the things I miss the most in Vectorworks

I've created some simple plugins or marionette objects, to get parametric objects, but it takes a lot of skills and time

[heavy manners]

20 hours ago, erminio said:

I've created some simple plugins or marionette objects, to get parametric objects, but it takes a lot of skills and time

 

And even then you cannot choose to set parameters by instance or Symbol/Style.