Working Drawings Elevation Renderings

[homero]

What rendering mode is everyone using for working drawings.  I assume it's hidden line, but for me it's been crashing my computer while shaded render works almost immediately.  Am I missing something?  BTW, I'm just getting started on BIM.

Wedgewood BIM.vwx

[rDesign]

It’s hard to tell without knowing what version of Vw you are running, Windows / Mac, and computer specifications. It will make troubleshooting easier if you include this info in your Vw Forum user signature (see note below for instructions).

 

I use SLVPs with Hidden Line all the time and I have not had it crash my entire computer, much less Vw.

 

Note — To add or change your Vw Forum signature block to :

1. Click on your profile name at the top right of this page.
2. Choose Account Settings
3. Choose Signature from the menu on the left. 

Edited August 14 by rDesign

[homero]

I'm on VW 2022 on a Mac M2 with 8GB or RAM.  I also tried it on a 16GB Mac and get the same problem.  

[rDesign]

That is almost certainly the issue. With the unified RAM in the M-series processors, 8gb or 16gb is probably not enough for 3D BIM modeling in Vw. You could probably get by with 8gb if you were only doing 2D in Vectorworks. But for 3D it is most likely not enough. See the following discussion:

 

 

Do you still have the crashes if Vw is the only running application?

[homero]

Why is it quick on shaded render?

[homero]

Can you try my file and see if you get the same problem?  It would be much appreciated.  

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, homero said:

What rendering mode is everyone using for working drawings.  I assume it's hidden line, but for me it's been crashing my computer while shaded render works almost immediately.  Am I missing something?  BTW, I'm just getting started on BIM.

Wedgewood BIM.vwx 33.24 MB · 2 downloads

 

I am looking at your file + there are only two Viewports: one is Top/Plan, the other a SectionVP with Hidden Line background render. The latter updated fine. Is this what you meant by 'working drawings' or were you talking about the Design Layer?

[homero]

By working drawings, I mean construction documents.  Black and white drawings I will be submitting for permit and construction.  For some reason, hidden line takes minutes to generate while shaded render is only about 1 second.    I wouldn't think there would be that much difference. 

[Tom W.]

1 minute ago, homero said:

By working drawings, I mean construction documents.  Black and white drawings I will be submitting for permit and construction. 

 

But there weren't any in the file to examine...

 

1 minute ago, homero said:

For some reason, hidden line takes minutes to generate while shaded render is only about 1 second.    I wouldn't think there would be that much difference. 

 

Were they Section Viewports? The time Shaded takes to render will depend on the Sheet Layer DPI. 

[homero]

I'm not sure why Section Viewports or Elevation Viewports would make a difference.  It just doesn't make sense to me that a black and white hidden line would take minutes compared shaded render which is only one second.  I'm new at this.  I'm sorry if I may not be understanding your questions.  

[E|FA]

1 hour ago, homero said:

By working drawings, I mean construction documents.  Black and white drawings I will be submitting for permit and construction.

We are not seeing construction drawing Viewports (VP) set up in your Sheet Layers (SL), other than the two @Tom W. noted above.  Are you new to creating 2D drawings on Sheet Layers from a 3D model in Design Layers(DL)?  I made the transition to this workflow a few years ago.  Before that I was drawing everything in 2D on Design Layers, so I understand the confusion if you're new to this.  If you can clarify what you're asking and how you're trying to accomplish it, you'll get better answers.  

[homero]

How about now?  There is a VP on sheet A2.1.  It takes about 5 minutes to render in hidden line a few seconds for shaded render.

Wedgewood BIM.vwx

[E|FA]

In case it helps, here's an updated file with a plan VP added on SL A1.2, which then has a Section Line added in the Annotations, creating an elevation SLVP on SL A2.1.  I then duplicated the elevation SLVP to test both rendering types.  The Hidden Line version took a little more time to render than the Shaded version (20 seconds?) on my 24GB M2 MacBook Air.

 

Wedgewood BIM+VPs v2022.vwx

[Pat Stanford]

Hidden line has to manually compare every single line segment in the file to every other to determine which are hidden and runs in single thread mode on the CPU.

 

Shaded uses a completely different algorithm which can run multi-threaded on the GPU(s).

 

Since the Shaded algorithm does not have to do as many comparison and can run on multiple threads on multiple GPUs (which most computers have more of than CPUs), it is substantially faster, but not as high of quality.

[E|FA]

With your updated file, I get Hidden Line in 24 seconds and Shaded in 2 seconds.  The computer specs in my signature are up to date.

Edited August 14 by E|FA

[homero]

Thank you. I have a 16GB MacBook Pro M2 with similarly slow rendering.  

[homero]

10 minutes ago, Pat Stanford said:

Hidden line has to manually compare every single line segment in the file to every other to determine which are hidden and runs in single thread mode on the CPU.

 

Shaded uses a completely different algorithm which can run multi-threaded on the GPU(s).

 

Since the Shaded algorithm does not have to do as many comparison and can run on multiple threads on multiple GPUs (which most computers have more of than CPUs), it is substantially faster, but not as high of quality.

 

Maybe I'm simplifying in my head.  I'm thinking the program would figure out what's in the foreground and only render what is there.  This is a pretty simple building.  Should I be concerned investing time on this program for larger projects?

 

 

[Pat Stanford]

16GB is still not very much for running VW. Especially if you also have other programs running in the background or if you have a large external monitor that will be using part of that memory for the display.

 

Try and restart the computer and launch only VW and see what happens.

 

As soon as you run out of real RAM and have to start swapping to the SSD, the render will slow to a crawl.

[E|FA]

I was not surprised by the time it took.  It's lightning fast compared to what it would have been on my previous Intel iMac.  I didn't find it a big problem even then, because I don't update the VP renderings that often.

[Pat Stanford]

Rendering, especially Hidden Line is only easy in your head. 😉

 

Rendering properly is one of the hardest computational tasks there is to do.

 

VW is fine at running big models.  It is certainly possible (probable) that your hardware is not.

[homero]

Thank you.

[homero]

1 hour ago, E|FA said:

I was not surprised by the time it took.  It's lightning fast compared to what it would have been on my previous Intel iMac.  I didn't find it a big problem even then, because I don't update the VP renderings that often.

I have tried your file on both an M1 Macbook Pro 16gb and an M2 8gb Mini.  Both took minutes to render.  I am a sole practitioner wondering if I should go to the Apple Store and spend another $2.5K and potentially end up in the same place.  I'm also wondering if it's the way to go for my 50 unit apartment buildings or should I just follow the herd and get a PC and Revit.  I've liked using VW in 2d mode and like Macs better than PCs so it's good to see that it's working out for you.

 

BTW, I'm also in Seattle, so It's good to know I'm not the only one on VW.  

[Tom W.]

7 hours ago, homero said:

How about now?  There is a VP on sheet A2.1.  It takes about 5 minutes to render in hidden line a few seconds for shaded render.

Wedgewood BIM.vwx 38.45 MB · 2 downloads

 

For me the VP takes 23 secs to render in Hidden Line + 5 secs to rended in Shaded. But the DPI for the sheet is 72. This is fine for Hidden Line but you would never render a Shaded VP at 72 DPI. I generally use 300 DPI for Shaded (+ Renderworks), sometimes even 600 DPI. At 300 DPI in Shaded it takes 17 secs to render + at 600 DPI 50 secs. There is also the 'Quality' settings in the Shaded Options ('Background Render Settings...' button in OIP). You had 'Details' set to 'Low' whereas I always have it set to 'Very High'. Lots of textures with reflections, transparency, etc + lights/shadows will also add to the render time in Shaded.

 

But ultimately as determined above it sounds like your hardware (the RAM) is the issue.

 

To edit the DPI, right-click on the Sheet Layer in the Navigation Palette + select 'Edit' to open the 'Edit Sheet Layers' dialog.

[Elite Exhibits]

@homero While I do not think I will convert may from Hidden Line Renderings, we tend NOT to use this option - See the attached for a possible alternate with Open GL (Shaded)

 

Settings are the key

     All 3 Pages in the attached PDF are the same Viewport

1. Open GL typical rendering - Color / Textures etcetera

2 Open GL rendering with altered settings

3. Hidden Line

Some clients want the full color approach others want 1982 black line on white

So it is easy to set up a template, draw, then alter the Viewport Render settings to achieve the requested look

 

Peter

Hidden vs Open GL.pdf