J-Box / Conduit suggestions and best practices

[Andy Bentley]

Not sure which category this could fall under, so I'm posting here. Really this could be ConnectCAD, Spotlight, or Architect.

 

I'm drawing as an AV integrator, but for new construction projects, we provide a set of drawings for the electrical engineer to specify where we need conduit and J-Boxes for low voltage. Our current system works okay. We use symbols with custom record formats for the J-Boxes, but then for conduit we just draw polylines between them and mark them up with our required quantity and size.

 

A few things I don't like about that approach is that (1) it's a bit difficult to move a J-Box at that point, (2) I don't have a great way to create a conduit schedule, and (3) my markup doesn't move with my conduit lines.

 

What I would love is if there was a tool that would attach lines to each J-Box and move as they move, as well as report on it's source and destination object. The closest thing I found was the making the J-Boxes out of Drop Points, and doing the conduit from Cable Paths. This at least lets the cable paths attach to my J-Boxes, but the reporting for cable paths doesn't include source and destination, and there is no included data tag.

 

My other thought was do use ConnectCAD devices and circuits, but that seems like more of a hack than a real solution.

 

I know there are MEP toolsets in Architect that are designed for things like this, but do they offer the features I'm looking for? If so, I'm open to exploring them. I just couldn't find many examples of them in practice.

 

Thank you guys for your help!

[Pat Stanford]

I don't believe the functionality you are asking for currently exists in VW.

 

I would like to do something similar for pipe installations and have not found a better method yet.

[Andy Bentley]

Got it. Then, side question. Is there a way to report on what drop points are connected to a cable route?

[jcogdell]

On 8/2/2024 at 6:32 PM, Andy Bentley said:

What I would love is if there was a tool that would attach lines to each J-Box and move as they move, as well as report on it's source and destination object. The closest thing I found was the making the J-Boxes out of Drop Points, and doing the conduit from Cable Paths. This at least lets the cable paths attach to my J-Boxes, but the reporting for cable paths doesn't include source and destination, and there is no included data tag.

This sounds like an enhancement request for the ConnectCAD team. You should go and post this on the ConnectCAD forum, its likely that the dev team will respond directly.

A possible work around is to approach this from a cabling point of view,

• a cable pull sheet will document both the droppoints and the distance through the cable route between them.
• The edit cabling tool can be used to add cables to the cable routes and to create documentation about how long the cable is, the cable route sections it goes through, its start and end drop points

Combine these with a riser diagram with data tags to id each cable route section and you be able to get most of the data you need.
There is also a data record that can be attached to cable route section to coument what sort of conduit is uses.
 

Additionally the Vectorworks university has a ConnectCAD cable planning course that covers Cable routes in more detail that may help

 

 

[garrettohler]

@Andy Bentley  We deal with the same issue.  We've developed a whole set of back boxes with records and tags, as well as electrical boxes with records and tags as any of the built-in tools were completely insufficient for our requirements.  We have a secondary set of tags that allows us to create a riser diagram, similar to the one you describe, that uses polylines to show connections from "Box 1" to Box 2" and so on.

 

We solved for "moving boxes" by making the tags have a leader line attached on a hidden class and creating our riser diagram on a different layer.  They stay attached and report data, but allow for the box to move.

 

As far as source/destination, if they exist as 3D symbols, we use reporting from spaces to show that info.

 

@jcogdell  Using ConnectCAD is the last tool that we use because everything else needs to happen (for construction documents) first, so even linking to ConnectCAD just adds a lot of extra work earlier in the process for larger projects.

 

I also wish there was better functionality for this workflow built-in.

Edited August 7 by garrettohler
Additional context and information

[jcogdell]

@garrettohler
The ConnectCAD cable route/planning is intended to be used for construction documentation, before a schematic is created. Its intended to create riser diagrams and other deliverables neaded to document and spec conduit, cable trays and cables that should be preinstalled at early stages of a construction project.
If it is missing elements or features for this intended purpose please provide us with the feedback our dev team needs to improve the feature so it does what you need it to do.

[Andy Bentley]

Thanks guys! This is all helpful. Maybe I'll try a project doing it how ConnectCad is designed. I think the step I was missing was adding my cabling once my cable routes were in place.

 

Otherwise we'll do what @garrettohler is doing. We're sort of there now, but we may just build out our own custom records and symbols a bit more.

[garrettohler]

@jcogdell Here's a list of features that I think are missing currently:

• Selecting a drop point symbol breaks any attached custom records
• The "Room" tool for locations is completely independent of the much more powerful "Space" tool, which for people working on more complex projects is a must for many reasons.  Reporting of objects in certain spaces for example.
• I may be missing something, but I don't see how to assign a size to the "Cable Route" which would often be a conduit.  We also prefer to have the option to upsize for future flexibility, even if it was able to be calculated by the cables and cable diameters inside the conduit.
• Many electrical contractors prefer to have a full back box schedule, including details such as: Box Size, Description, Height, Mounting method, Make, Model, Cover plate, EC scope, and in our case AV scope.  This clarifies responsibilities and expectations on every single back box.
• Drop points don't have a record that can be tagged to display the box name on a floor plan or RCP.

[jcogdell]

@garrettohler
Thanks for the feedback I'll make sure its passed on to the connectCAD team.

 

6 minutes ago, garrettohler said:

I don't see how to assign a size to the "Cable Route" which would often be a conduit.  We also prefer to have the option to upsize for future flexibility, even if it was able to be calculated by the cables and cable diameters inside the conduit.

Currently this is done by attaching  the CC Cable Container data record to the Cable routes after you have drawn them. The idea is that you would customise the record by adding a dropdown field containing the standard conduit sizes you use for a project. Once this this is done you can use Datatags to both label theroute section and choose the conduit size from the dropdown.
I think this can be improved upon though.

 

10 minutes ago, garrettohler said:

The "Room" tool for locations is completely independent of the much more powerful "Space" tool, which for people working on more complex projects is a must for many reasons.  Reporting of objects in certain spaces for example.

 A solution for this is being worked on.

[Conrad Preen]

@Andy Bentley Hi Andy, just to jump in here. What you describe in your initial message is exactly what cable route planning in ConnectCAD is designed to do.

 

You use the Drop Point tool to designate the places where your cables are delivered, and use the Cable Route tool to draw the paths between them. Drop Points and Cable Paths know that they are joined so they stay joined as you move them around. Cable Paths have really cool reshape behaviours that make it easy to navigate obstacles like aircon ducts etc.

 

The reason we use this abstract Drop Point to mark the delivery point for cables is for the workflow reasons that you mention. As AV designers we often have to supply requirements to electrical contractors way before the AV system is designed. So a drop point is a promise to put some equipment later (when we actually know what it is). But we have extended the concept so now you can join cable paths to racks and to equipment items. As the project progresses you add equipment and link it to your drop points. Then when you design your schematics the circuits route themselves through the cable path network.

 

Unlike Spotlight we don't deal in physical cables - there's no real point - once you have the path and the start and end device/socket you don't need a separate object to be the physical bit of wire.

 

That's a brief intro to the ConnectCAD way of cable routing.

 

Conrad

 

Product Planner - ConnectCAD

[Conrad Preen]

On 8/9/2024 at 5:42 PM, garrettohler said:

• Selecting a drop point symbol breaks any attached custom records
• The "Room" tool for locations is completely independent of the much more powerful "Space" tool, which for people working on more complex projects is a must for many reasons.  Reporting of objects in certain spaces for example.
• I may be missing something, but I don't see how to assign a size to the "Cable Route" which would often be a conduit.  We also prefer to have the option to upsize for future flexibility, even if it was able to be calculated by the cables and cable diameters inside the conduit.
• Many electrical contractors prefer to have a full back box schedule, including details such as: Box Size, Description, Height, Mounting method, Make, Model, Cover plate, EC scope, and in our case AV scope.  This clarifies responsibilities and expectations on every single back box.
• Drop points don't have a record that can be tagged to display the box name on a floor plan or RCP.

@garrettohler thanks for this list - I have a few questions / suggestions which I think will answer most of the points.

1. Breaking custom attached records. I cannot reproduce this. Have you a got a file that does it?

2. Room object. This is not the case any more. ConnectCAD objects now detect anything with an IfcSpace record and report this as their location.
3. Cable Path size. It would be easy to add a Duct Size choice list parameter if that's all we need at this stage. The reason I didn't go for it was because this would inevitably lead to a demand to draw the path at size. And many complications follow on from that.

4. This is very user-specific and should be done with attached records IMHO. There is much variance in the amount of information that designers need (or want) to supply for a drop point.

5. You can create a data tag that displays the Name parameter of a drop point - I just did it. Let me know what isn't working for you.

 

I appreciate that Cable Route Planning falls far short of a full MEP solution. But it was an achievable goal that brings useful functionality to the AV designer. I am encouraged by the lively discussion here. Maybe we can move in that direction. I'm happy to work together with you to bring this closer.

 

Conrad

[garrettohler]

4 hours ago, Conrad Preen said:

1. Breaking custom attached records. I cannot reproduce this. Have you a got a file that does it?

2. Room object. This is not the case any more. ConnectCAD objects now detect anything with an IfcSpace record and report this as their location.
3. Cable Path size. It would be easy to add a Duct Size choice list parameter if that's all we need at this stage. The reason I didn't go for it was because this would inevitably lead to a demand to draw the path at size. And many complications follow on from that.

4. This is very user-specific and should be done with attached records IMHO. There is much variance in the amount of information that designers need (or want) to supply for a drop point.

5. You can create a data tag that displays the Name parameter of a drop point - I just did it. Let me know what isn't working for you.

 

I appreciate that Cable Route Planning falls far short of a full MEP solution. But it was an achievable goal that brings useful functionality to the AV designer. I am encouraged by the lively discussion here. Maybe we can move in that direction. I'm happy to work together with you to bring this closer.

 

@Conrad Preen  Thank you for making time to respond.

1. Breaking custom attached records: I've attached a file that does this, along with a video.

2. Room object: I was not able to get that to work either.  See attached file and video as well.  Is it net vs gross and it only works with one?

3. Cable Path size: After digging a bit deeper, I see how to have a parameter included for size on the cable path.  I do think that not having a record automatically attached to the cable path tool is not entirely helpful.  I was able to force the connection using the data manager, but it feels incomplete in implementation by default.

4. Custom records: I'm fine with utilizing custom records, if they didn't break.

5. Drop point Name data tag: You are correct that the name field can be tagged.  I must've been looking in the wrong place at first.

 

6. Data management: Getting a custom record, drop points, and styles all working as seamlessly as our symbols has been challenging.  I'd like to be able to use the data manager to do some heavy lifting, but having an attached record to a plugin style in the resource manager and to the drop point in the data manger is creating some new challenges.  Fields that should be linked have to be toggled for every new instance of the object.

 

Again, thank you for your time.  I would definitely be interested in continuing to collaborate on this topic.

ConnectCAD cable tool.vwx

[Conrad Preen]

Thanks Garret! Tomorrow is a public holiday in my part of the world. But I will follow up on Friday. 
 

Conrad

[digitalcarbon]

granted this may be not what you all want but I'm going to drop I on all of you anyway.

 

23-35 33 17 Electrical Conduit PVC.vwx

[RMDiekmann]

On 8/14/2024 at 4:10 AM, Conrad Preen said:

@garrettohler thanks for this list - I have a few questions / suggestions which I think will answer most of the points.

1. Breaking custom attached records. I cannot reproduce this. Have you a got a file that does it?

2. Room object. This is not the case any more. ConnectCAD objects now detect anything with an IfcSpace record and report this as their location.
3. Cable Path size. It would be easy to add a Duct Size choice list parameter if that's all we need at this stage. The reason I didn't go for it was because this would inevitably lead to a demand to draw the path at size. And many complications follow on from that.

4. This is very user-specific and should be done with attached records IMHO. There is much variance in the amount of information that designers need (or want) to supply for a drop point.

5. You can create a data tag that displays the Name parameter of a drop point - I just did it. Let me know what isn't working for you.

 

I appreciate that Cable Route Planning falls far short of a full MEP solution. But it was an achievable goal that brings useful functionality to the AV designer. I am encouraged by the lively discussion here. Maybe we can move in that direction. I'm happy to work together with you to bring this closer.

 

Conrad

@Conrad Preen I am particularly interested in the second option, as I was previously unaware of its existence. Could you please provide further details on how to implement this? It would be a significant time-saver for us, especially since many of the IFC files we receive from architects already include defined spaces.

[Conrad Preen]

@RMDiekmann Ah yes I got ahead of myself a bit. This is a feature coming up in the new version which will be out very soon . It was a request from one of our German beta-testers who faces exactly that issue.

 

Conrad