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Sketchup download taking hours, how do I cancel it?


MGuilfoile

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ime most serious VW lockups need a hard boot, it is a great pity that VW cannot be gracefully exited from, and that there's basically no feedback on what is happening.

 

Also .skp files (depending on what the drawing is of) can overwhelm VW as .skp's object model does not have true radius cuves, so a cirle is hundred of short straight lines. So if there's lots of curves this can slow things to a crawl. Maybe import by layers - which I realise is very tedious.

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Hmmm...so Sketchup is not a parametric CAD system? It is my understanding that VW and others in its category create curves, lines, etc. using mathematical equations (parametric?) whereas obsolete CAD systems and modelers ("modelers" being apps like 3D Studio and Blender) create 3D objects with millions of tiny triangles (or lines) defined by x,y,z coordinates in space. I believe what VW does is use math, which is more efficient. It sounds like Sketchup uses the obsolete system--which explains why some of my colleagues consider it a "toy."

 

The thing is, there are tons of 3D objects to download, but they are mostly .FBX files. Sometimes OBJ, but mostly .FBX, which VW stubbornly refuses to include in its import options (though it has no problem exporting the file format, which is puzzling.) I hope they come to their senses and give us the .fbx option since as it stands now the wobbly, unreliable OBJ is the only format to import 3D textured objects into VW.

 

Thanks for the quick response! Force quitting now.

MHBrown

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4 hours ago, MGuilfoile said:

Hmmm...so Sketchup is not a parametric CAD system? It is my understanding that VW and others in its category create curves, lines, etc. using mathematical equations (parametric?) whereas obsolete CAD systems and modelers ("modelers" being apps like 3D Studio and Blender) create 3D objects with millions of tiny triangles (or lines) defined by x,y,z coordinates in space. I believe what VW does is use math, which is more efficient. It sounds like Sketchup uses the obsolete system--which explains why some of my colleagues consider it a "toy."


Everything quoted above is simply  incorrect.

 

It would be nice to import FBX.

OBJ is probably one of the most reliable 3D mesh formats you will ever use to bring in static textured objects.  Odd you describe it as wobbly.

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You are probably right about the OBJ import. I think it is sometimes not prepared correctly by the sender, so it comes in saying "missing texture maps" when the texture maps are right there in the folder. I don't recall there being a prompt to find them (a la Adobe products), but I could just be missing a step on my end somewhere. I pull in realistic human figures using OBJ, but it is very hit and miss, usually coming from 3D Studio or FormZ. Probably human error on my part, but it shouldn't be so complicated. I suppose "wobbly" isn't really a good description of that.

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Oh, I almost forgot. If I have it wrong, just what is the difference between a CAD program and a modeler? Those are the two groups I'm always hearing about. If they are both using math to create solids, why do they always import as meshes? What is a parametric modeler or CAD app? What is it if it is not? 

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2 hours ago, MGuilfoile said:

Oh, I almost forgot. If I have it wrong, just what is the difference between a CAD program and a modeler? Those are the two groups I'm always hearing about. If they are both using math to create solids, why do they always import as meshes? What is a parametric modeler or CAD app? What is it if it is not? 

 

"CAD" and "Modeler" don't necessarily point to a certain technology but, as far as I know, SketchUp is a surface modeler - meaning it models objects as a group of surfaces (or meshes).  Vectorworks does model very few objects as meshes but most (by far) are solids.

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3 hours ago, MGuilfoile said:

between a CAD program and a modeler?

CAD is an overall generic term, Computer Aided Design.  For many years most CAD systems were 2D only.  MiniCad, as Vectorworks was originally called was unusual, as it had a 3D component from the outset.   There are three basic types of modelling, Solid, Surface and Mesh.   Most programs only do one, where VW's does them all.  One would think this is wonderful and it is, but as all these modelling forms within VW's can interact with each other, this leads to a long learning curve.  Throw in Hybrid tools and users seek out Blender, Rhino, etc. because they are good, but more important "straight forward".

 

Why is importing other CAD systems so troublesome?

 

The natural path for Vectorworks, Blender, Rhino, etc. is not to each other.  Excluding machining/printing, the next step in the visual pipeline is to CINEMA 4D, Maya, 3D Max, etc.   From there the pipeline continues forward to special effects people.  This is why there is seldom a problem importing dxf, OBJ, 3D studio, IGES, etc. into these systems.  They spend money on importing from CAD systems.    

 

Exporting/importing is a push/pull system from the applications writing the code.  They may write their DXF out with all the bells and whistles, or only some basic functions.  For example, DXF separates objects using pen color, but this has to be coded in on the importing application.

Edited by VIRTUALENVIRONS
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14 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

"CAD" and "Modeler" don't necessarily point to a certain technology but, as far as I know, SketchUp is a surface modeler - meaning it models objects as a group of surfaces (or meshes).  Vectorworks does model very few objects as meshes but most (by far) are solids.

 

Meshes may not technically be defined as solids, but in reality, they are for sure solids too in the sense that they work and operate as solids. You can add and subtract solids to it, and on closed shapes, you can calculate volumes etc, on them. It usually work very well on the meshes I import, and I typically do 90% of my mesh modeling externally. 

 

The example show an imported mesh surface, where I did both solid subtractions and additions without any problem. 

 

 

Skärmavbild 2024-06-29 kl. 14.22.30.png

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There is some confusion with VW's in this area, largely because of nomenclature.  VW's uses the term Solids in place of Boolean.  Symbols as opposed to "instances" is another example.

A better example of this, is that with surface models, both "Add Solids" and "Stitch and Trim" can produce the same result, but with solid geometry "Stitch and Trim" will not work the same.  It does produce some interesting results though.

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On 6/28/2024 at 7:09 AM, MGuilfoile said:

It is my understanding that VW and others in its category create curves, lines, etc. using mathematical equations (parametric?)

When NURBS surfaces are exported, they are often Tessellated, but different surfaces even within VW will Tesselate differently.   When the 'Send to C4D" command was implemented, I wrote a series of tutorials for Nemetschek on sending VW's models to CINEMA 4D and why they came in differently.  They were on MAXON's Cineversity.  The Tesselation version is still there.

The link is below, much of this explains some of your questions, but also questions not asked.

 

https://www.cineversity.com/vidplaytut/vectorworks_to_cinema_4d_02

 

 

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On 6/29/2024 at 8:25 AM, Claes Lundstrom said:

 

Meshes may not technically be defined as solids, but in reality, they are for sure solids too in the sense that they work and operate as solids. You can add and subtract solids to it, and on closed shapes, you can calculate volumes etc, on them. It usually work very well on the meshes I import, and I typically do 90% of my mesh modeling externally. 

 

The example show an imported mesh surface, where I did both solid subtractions and additions without any problem. 

 

 

Skärmavbild 2024-06-29 kl. 14.22.30.png

 

This may be true, but only for manifold (airtight) meshes.  If the mesh "leaks", you will see differences.

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All great information here, thanks! I was thinking there must be categories of 3D modeling, but perhaps not. It seems like 3D Studio Max, for example, is more useful when the final product is an image or video and Vectorworks is better when the final product is something to be built. Those seem to be the two categories I hear people discussing when picking software. The claim is that you can build more organic objects in 3DS Max or Blender and the rendering quality is better, but I get great renders out of VW and other than rockwork, plants, or animals (which I've never had the need to model,) I've never be at a loss to build something in VW202x versions. And the production people love my drawing sets. Not so much with 3DS and Blender, which in my experience is difficult to draw in scale. In short, it seems VW covers both needs.

MHBrown

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10 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

This may be true, but only for manifold (airtight) meshes.  If the mesh "leaks", you will see differences.

 

The booleans in my mesh examples are open shapes (so they do leak), and they still always work as solids. OK, my imported meshes never leaks, so I guess it can be problem for messy meshes.

 

Leaks is a problem with shapes intended to be closed, where there is a need for volume and center of mass calculations. Incorrectly facing normals can also be a problem here.

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1 hour ago, MGuilfoile said:

I assume it is someone's name.

There was a link explaining at the bottom of that post.  The video explains why some objects come in so heavy, while others are light, etc.  Tessellate, when used in conjunction with 3D Geometry is the process of converting a NURBS surface to a polygon surface.  In this example, the polygons are fairly large, but another program could turn a sphere into thousands of triangles.

 

Screenshot2024-07-02at9_34_42AM.thumb.png.2093d937172f84195830f928b7b32098.png

 

 

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I'm sorry I missed the previous explanation, but you image of the spheres is very helpful. So, why would a software program convert an efficient, mathematically defined object like a NURBS sphere into a bunch of 3D triangles? I seem to be missing something here. I can't imagine why software would still be creating 3D entities as a bunch of triangles stitched together when there is a better method. What am I missing?

Thank you!

MHBrown

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1 hour ago, MGuilfoile said:

What am I missing?

You are not missing anything.  This is a fairly complex issue and I certainly don't have all the answers, but I can try to explain.

NURBS vs Polygons

Many programs, especially visualization software prefer triangles as they produce the fastest render times, but they can only export triangles.  As these programs are not used for machining, etc., mesh is fine.

Machining prefers NURBS surface for their surface accuracy.  Machining can be done with triangles, but the computer must interpolate between the triangles hard surface edge and therefore open to discrepancies.  In the Visualization world, smoothing is done using phong settings, again more useful for visualization, as you can choose the level of smoothness. (a whole other story). 

 

Why Tessellation

 

If a NURBS program has to export to Blender, it has no choice but to export a format that tessellates out its geometry so Blender can import it, as blender does not use NURBS.

 

Parasolid .X_t.   This format will import into Vectorworks as if it was made in Vectorworks, but will not carry any texture information.  I can supply one if you would like to try.

 

I hope this helps, but what I have written has caveats and only scratches the surface of this subject.

 

Paul

 

 

 

 

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Thank you for all the interesting explanations! Still, if Blender has figured out how to "do" NURBS, I assume it has also figured out the rendering performance hit, too. It looks to me like there are two types of 3D apps: Those where the final product is the image or video (Blender, 3D Studio Max) and those where the final product is something built (AutoCAD, Vectorworks), making the "pretty picture" an intermediate phase to calm the nerves of the client. It is not the final product. Not even close, actually. That explains why I can export a NURBS-based file to 3D Studio because it just dumbs it down into a bunch of triangles with Phong settings. I remember that from 35 years ago. I don't see why anyone is still using meshes for 3D creation if the volunteers who work on Blender have figured out how to render with mathematical entities. Quite confusing, all these contradictory things. Personally, I would not use Blender. I'm uncomfortable with the rudderless development of unrelated volunteers tinkering with software in, I assume, their spare time, yes? I have to confess I've only built the doughnut and not much else.

Thanks again!

MH Brown

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I think you have it figured out spot on.  I did make a mistake as pointed out that Blender has a NURBS capability, so in my explanation replace Blender with (Non NURBS application).😀

 

35 years ago.  Maybe I am not the oldest.  I am 70, been using 3D software since MiniCad 2.0.  Have worked with everything you can think of though, SGI, PC's.   Worked in CAM.

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5 hours ago, MGuilfoile said:

Personally, I would not use Blender. I'm uncomfortable with the rudderless development of unrelated volunteers tinkering with software in, I assume, their spare time, yes?


No, they have an amazing organization and well planned product development.  I don’t get why you guys make such uninformed statements.  You aren’t fostering a fact based learning environment, rather displaying tribal loyalties and fearing the people across the river.

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6 hours ago, MGuilfoile said:

...there are two types of 3D apps: Those where the final product is the image or video (Blender, 3D Studio Max) and those where the final product is something built (AutoCAD, Vectorworks), making the "pretty picture" an intermediate phase to calm the nerves of the client. It is not the final product. Not even close, actually. 

 

I'd say there are a variety of communication tools at our disposal.

Whether it is a rendering or a series of construction details, they are all visual communications of a designer's intent.

The audience with which the designer is communicating may suggest which tools they use.
 

13 hours ago, MGuilfoile said:

What am I missing?

To my understanding* (and for those who don't know), converting geometry to triangles(one kind of tesselation) is primarily about Normals. A Normal is a vector, perpendicular to a surface. Computer graphics need to know what direction a surface is facing to model how light would interact with the surface. Since a (mathematically efficient) surface can have infinite Normals, we don't want our computer to have to calculate infinite solutions. Computer graphics must sample the surfaces and create an approximation of the curves. Since a triangle is a planar surface with the fewest vertices, it is the most efficient way to convert a surface with an infinite number of Normals into something the computer can calculate. There is some newer technology called "Gaussian Splatting" where the computer "throws" an array of points at a geometric surface to calculate the normals without converting the geometry to triangles first. It is being used in some real-time rendering applications. 

So, to say Blender "dumbs down" NURBS to a mesh is a bit like saying compiling software to "1's" and "0's" is dumbing down the code.

 

Here is a secret, every shaded (OpenGL) view in VW is a visual display of polygons, regardless of the underlying geometry to compute/store the object. 

Unless we are working exclusively in top/plan or wireframe, all of our fancy ACIS, CGS, NURBS, or Subdivision geometry is converted to polygons for better onscreen display. I'm 98% sure this is true of Hidden Line views as well. Vectorworks uses code built into the graphics engines of our computers to control the display of those polygons to make them look smooth. So really, all of our section views, details, elevations, etc. are just "pretty pictures" of the underlying geometry - acting as intermediate phases to the ultimate construction of our ideas. 

 

Oh, and while Gcode (used in running everything from $100 3D printers to the most sophisticated milling machines) has some capacity for arcs it also simplifies almost everything down to triangles, and ultimately, straight lines. It's just that the code that converts Surfaces to GCode is optimized for that task and will subsample geometry based on the capabilities of the machine being used.  So, it is better to have that conversion done by the processing software that outputs GCode than to give it something that has already been converted to triangles. 

 

*I'm only a Nerd at heart, I am not a software engineer so my understanding is likely flawed on many levels. I am, however, fascinated by all of this magic that gives us these incredible tools to bring our ideas to life. So, I love learning as much as I can about it all and, when appropriate, sharing my understanding with others. Feel free to correct my explanations if I have misrepresented anything. 

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4 hours ago, Jeff Prince said:


No, they have an amazing organization and well planned product development.  I don’t get why you guys make such uninformed statements.  You aren’t fostering a fact based learning environment, rather displaying tribal loyalties and fearing the people across the river.

 

They have indeed shaped up a lot. It was a complete mess. Apple invested a man-year in it just to optimize Blender on the Apple side, so it's quite fast as well. Still, after watching some tutorials, and played with it a fair amount of time, I still feel the user interface is still a bit of a mess. 

 

My point is, when looking back at my work back to 1985, I have always preferred apps with a clean user interface. I tried several CAD apps back then and ended up with MiniCAD 2, not because it was the fastest (it wasn't) or the most advanced (it wasn't), but because it was easy going and straight forward, and it had rudimentary 3D. Since then, I tried many CAD apps. Some where more advanced, but often fell through due to a bad interface. FormZ was such an example. The same apples with rendering apps, och which I have probably used at least ten over the years. Again, best user interface always generated shifting to a new app, not most advanced. As an app developer, my favorite key word has always been "modeless", essentially meaning finding an absolute minimum number of steps required to get something done. A friend illustrated it well when he did a shift from one app to another. He did a certain task in his favorite app, which took about two hours. He then tried it in another app, concluding that it took seven minutes. Time is money!

 

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6 hours ago, BartHays said:

o my understanding* (and for those who don't know), converting geometry to triangles(one kind of tesselation) is primarily about Normals

First of all, excellent explanation of many aspects of 3D conversions, but I have a different take on Surface Normals.

 

I use C4D when I have to render/animate.  It does not matter which direction the normals are on imported Geometry, as unless you have "backface culling" checked 'on" it renders as if the normals were all aligned.  This is very important in the VW's/C4D union.  For example, "duplicate along path" can quickly reverse your surface normals and if the objects themselves are complex, then you have a mess if "backface culling" is checked "on" is C4D.

 

In VR where real time rendering is key, "backface culling' is always on to gain speed.  There are some good tools in C4D to align multiple inverted Surface Normals.

 

Triangles or Quads?  Although we think in terms of triangles in tessellation, very often we are using Quads.  Sculpting, Subdivision in Vectorworks, etc. uses quads instead of triangles. 

 

This is a complex subject, books are written on this.  

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