'Proposed Contours' not working as expected in Site Model

[nicovlogg]

Hi all, I'm working with the 3D site model tools for the first time. I've gone through tutorials pretty extensively but haven't been able to find a solution to this issue. I have an existing site model, provided by the client. I'm attempting to model some new berms and swales on this model. When I add these in 'Proposed Contours', the model does not change. My view is set to show 'proposed' so it's not a phasing issue. Would appreciate any help. I can use the 'validate 3D data' tool and get an error, but there is nothing useful about a message that says 'something is wrong' - I need to know what it is. There are no overlapping lines that I can find. 

 

Existing contours

Proposed contours - new in pink

[Jeff Prince]

38 minutes ago, nicovlogg said:

When I add these in 'Proposed Contours', the model does not change.

Post the file so we can see what you did here.  Likely the source of your issue.

[nicovlogg]

File is attached. I am working left to right. You will see that I extracted the contours, added my new 3D polys to them, and then pasted them in the 'proposed contours' model to attempt to create the landscape - the result was a mostly flat block. Even when using those contours to create a new landscape from scratch (the last site model on the right) you will see that it does not 100% follow the contours, and is flat at the bottom. 

 

Thanks for any help. 

 

 

Site Modelling VW.vwx

[Jeff Prince]

#1 - You don't need to use existing contours for your existing conditions when you have been supplied points.

Just grab the points and make and existing site model from them.

 

Next, draw a grade limit around your proposed contours to define the extents you will allow Vectorworks to resolve the grade.

Add your 3D Polys representing your proposed contours to the Site-DTM-Modifier class.

Set your model to Display proposed in 3D and 2D.

Update the site model.

 

You should then see something like this which features burns and swales fitted to your proposed contours.

 

 

The file you posted shows something similar at the far right, but your existing contours lost their z elevation.  This happened sometime around your example named "PROPOSED SITE (CONTOUR EDITED)".  Another reason not to use/generate contours when you have points, you can make mistakes without realizing it.

 

Flip your file up into Front View and you will see what I'm talking about... you contours are suddenly flat.

 

Attached is a fixed version of the file for reference.

Site Modelling-fixed.vwx

[nicovlogg]

Thank you @Jeff Prince, this is exactly what I'm looking for!

 

I understand your process and stumbled onto something similar, but I should note that in the Vectorworks guide they do not suggest using site modifiers and suggest editing the proposed contours, so I followed that process. Is there a reason why I can't get it to work that way or a specific reason why that process is suggested by them as being superior?

[Jeff Prince]

17 minutes ago, nicovlogg said:

Is there a reason why I can't get it to work that way or a specific reason why that process is suggested by them as being superior?

 

You can't get it to work because your existing contours aren't at the correct elevation and you didn't have a grade limit modifier....It really has nothing to do with the method used to add the proposed contours.  I don't recall hearing anyone at Vectorworks claiming anything is superior, they seems to be a bit agnostic on methodology.  Can you point out where you heard that?

 

I've been beating the drum for years that people should use points instead of contours.  Why, because contours are imaginary and points are real.  You can make your own imaginary contours from real points.  Your model will be more accurate and operate faster as a result.

[nicovlogg]

I think we're missing each other - I have an existing site file created using points. According to my understanding, the correct way to edit it post VW2021 is to use the 'edit proposed contours' command - you can see the suggestion here: https://app-help.vectorworks.net/2021/eng/VW2021_Guide/SiteModel1/Creating_a_contour.htm#XREF_15642_Creating_a_Contour

 

The proposed contours do have elevation - is the missing link the grade modifier? Even adding that, I get an essentially random landscape as a result, as below, that has nothing to do with the new contours I've drawn in. 

 

[nicovlogg]

Copying the site modifiers from your file and using them on my newly recreated file, I get the following result:

 

Rather than the smooth edges I see on yours

 

Smoothing has been set to 90degrees, so it's something else that I'm missing.

[Jeff Prince]

1 hour ago, nicovlogg said:

The proposed contours do have elevation

Well, I suppose if you mean all of your existing contours have the same elevation of -5800, then I suppose your are correct 🙂

See this video for an explanation of why your model is misbehaving...

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, nicovlogg said:

Copying the site modifiers from your file and using them on my newly recreated file, I get the following result:

You are missing grade limits in that image where your contours look like vertical sided pits.

 

Site modeling is only as good as the data you feed it.

It's easy to get lost in all of this, happens to the best of us.

Break it down into simple steps and check your work if things go wrong, usually the issue will be evident.

[LavenderGardens]

16 hours ago, Jeff Prince said:

See this video for an explanation of why your model is misbehaving...

You make it look so easy!  How long did it take for you to become a wizard?

[nicovlogg]

Hi Jeff

 

Thanks for your time and the detailed breakdown. What I often miss is that Vectorworks has very specific rules about which 3D data differing line types have. I come from a Rhino background where a line is a line and all lines and points have 3D information. More adaptation is required than I expected.

 

I have been working on the file a bit more, and now have some hardscapes and so on that I want to add. I am using a combination of arcs and lines and NURBS to get the curvy surfaces I'm looking for and they seem to be working OK. 

 

However for some reason the hardscapes are in some areas covered by the landscape, regardless of whether I use the 'cut landscape' option or not - what am I doing wrong here? Does this have something to do with the grade limit again? Can I simply extend the grade limit beyond the extents of the model so that it covers everything inside the site model? I will attach the file again. Thank you again.

 

[nicovlogg]

Never mind, it's not letting me upload the file. 

 

[Jeff Prince]

50 minutes ago, nicovlogg said:

Hi Jeff

 

Thanks for your time and the detailed breakdown. What I often miss is that Vectorworks has very specific rules about which 3D data differing line types have. I come from a Rhino background where a line is a line and all lines and points have 3D information. More adaptation is required than I expected.

 

I have been working on the file a bit more, and now have some hardscapes and so on that I want to add. I am using a combination of arcs and lines and NURBS to get the curvy surfaces I'm looking for and they seem to be working OK. 

 

However for some reason the hardscapes are in some areas covered by the landscape, regardless of whether I use the 'cut landscape' option or not - what am I doing wrong here? Does this have something to do with the grade limit again? Can I simply extend the grade limit beyond the extents of the model so that it covers everything inside the site model? I will attach the file again. Thank you again.

 

no problem, happy to help.  I used Rhino long before Vectorworks too. You’ll get the hang of things in VWX if you keep practicing.  
 

make sure your site model is set to display proposed, hardscapes set to be site modifiers, and all your site modifiers surrounded by a grade limit or limits (you can have more than one).  Don’t go beyond the extents of your site model with anything, weird things happen.  You can add some additional data to extend your model if you must work at the edge, this will give vectorworks a clean edge to work against.