Is this possible with site modeling?

[demetris ktorides]

Hello, VW community!

 

I am trying to model the site spilling onto a roof in VW. I am attaching a sectional sketch of what I am trying to achieve. 

 

Essentially I am trying to spill the site topology onto a roof (green bit) - however, the site modifier makes a clean vertical cut. 

 

Does anyone know if we can do 'undercuts' with site modeling, or has anyone got a suggestion on how to model this?

 

Best,

Demetris

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Although not a landscaped architect, I have used the Terrain modeller.  I just create the shape I want to remove in a 3D model, position it and do a "Subtract Solids".

But, perhaps there is something I am missing.  There are many others on the Forum who can answer this.

The purple object was used to create the hole in this basic site model.

[Jeff Prince]

1 hour ago, demetris ktorides said:

Hello, VW community!

 

I am trying to model the site spilling onto a roof in VW. I am attaching a sectional sketch of what I am trying to achieve. 

 

Essentially I am trying to spill the site topology onto a roof (green bit) - however, the site modifier makes a clean vertical cut. 

 

Does anyone know if we can do 'undercuts' with site modeling, or has anyone got a suggestion on how to model this?

 

Best,

Demetris

You can’t do an undercut or tunnel with the site modeling tools currently.

However, you can use a trick to do it…. Use two different site models, one for the site and one for the fill.  

 

Alternatively, you can do one site model and then use object modeling tools to create the fill above.

 

There are a ton of threads here on the forum about the topic if you need more ideas.

[Pat Stanford]

14 hours ago, VIRTUALENVIRONS said:

Although not a landscaped architect, I have used the Terrain modeller.  I just create the shape I want to remove in a 3D model, position it and do a "Subtract Solids".

But, perhaps there is something I am missing.  There are many others on the Forum who can answer this.

The purple object was used to create the hole in this basic site model.

But the resulting object is then a Solid Subtraction no longer a Site Model.  If you are gong to suggest options that change objects, please also talk about what the limitations of those options are or don't recommend them.

 

@jeff princehas offered the correct option is you need Digital Terrain Models. Make two of them.

[Tom W.]

I don't think you can achieve the curved underside to the green area with a DTM in which case Jeff's second option is probably the only viable one...?

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

10 hours ago, Pat Stanford said:

But the resulting object is then a Solid Subtraction no longer a Site Model

To be honest I don't know how to respond to this.

 

There was a fellow who was having trouble making a flat wall a while back with the site model.  I was interested, but as I am not a Landscape Architect, I just followed.  Others were helping him, but the wall never came.  Finally, I showed him how to modify the site model so it would work, without making two models.  I don't know if he ever succeeded, but he "learned something" that let him move on.

 

He was very appreciative and sent me a private email.  I found it odd that he sent me a private email thanking me as opposed to just saying "thanks" on the regular forum.  I have come to understand what that reason may be. 

 

 

 

 

[demetris ktorides]

 

@VIRTUALENVIRONS, yeah unfortunately I am trying to retain the site model as a contoured VW site model! 

 

Thank you all for your responses! 

 

I have used Jeffs method, making a second site model - however, it reveals a second issue: even though we can modify the top surface of a site model, there doesn't seem to be a way to touch its bottom surface - which means we can't make the site model's bottom geometry follow the roof line bellow it - Do correct me if I missing something here! [I am not dealing with a flat roof, but one that does curvy things]. 

 

I resolved this second issue by converting the second site model into 3D polygons and manually editing it - in case anyone has a similar site modeling issue. 

 

How nice would it be, if 3D modeling tools (solid subtraction, addition) worked on-site models though?!

 

Best, 

D

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by demetris ktorides

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Good Luck in your work.  Please keep us up to date on your solution.

 

Kind regards.....Paul

[Jeff Prince]

@demetris ktorides That's why I provided the second technique.  DTMs are really just a model of the top facing surface, the sides and bottoms are just provided as a frameworks to help depict the top surface.  This might change in the future, but it's a good way to think about it in the mean time.

 

So, if you actually need a DTM for the portion of the site that will sit over an irregular roof, you might want to use a similar technique to what I describe in this thread...

 

 

The recommended deviation... use the DTM with out a skirt to represent the ground surface for the purpose of receiving plants and other DTM specific workflows.  Also, where I mention export/import to AutoCAD, you can simply take a copy of the DTM and ungroup it to get the contours, which is a handy trick for a lot of things,I didn't know that in 2019 when that I wrote that post 🙂    Then, use the solid modeling tools tool to sculpt the volume you are interested in depicting which exists above the roof.  This gives you the best of both worlds and allows you to calculate volumes above structure.

Edited July 30, 2023 by jeff prince

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:46 AM, demetris ktorides said:

has anyone got a suggestion on how to model this?

Dear Demetris,

My apology for my underwhelming response to your post.  I had just woke up, had a cup of coffee in my hand, saw your hand drawn diagram and thought you were new to Vectorworks.  

Although I always preface that I am not a Landscape Architect, I have led three Federally funded Canadian historical projects that required massive and complex Terrain Reconstruction.  I just don’t find the Site modeller with modifiers to be a professional tool.  It is probably amazing for Shopping malls and Subdivisions, but it has limitations for complex work, but the tools to do complex work are still well within Vectorworks.  Probably the best tool on the market for this.

 

If I simply create the model using the Create Site tool, and then go to work with NURBS tools, add and subtract solids, I am not restricted.

 

There are three projects below where clearly Terrain modifiers would be woefully underwhelming.  Having said that, the first project was done before Create Site Model was available.

These projects were all done with Vectorworks and CINEMA 4D before the “Send to C4D” command.  I created my own set of hooks that work as well as the current installed command today.  To that end, I eventually worked with Nemetschek Germany to implement the “Send to C4D” command.

 

2001

Below is a short trailer of sorts from a 15 minute movie created using Vectorworks and CINEMA 4D in 2001.  Twenty two years ago.  I can’t take all the credit.  The Federal government sponsored four students from across Canada to work with me for two summers.  I trained them in Vectorworks, but one fellow was very good with water and Character animation. (For the period).  In one segment of this short, it goes through the Sluice Gates underwater.  

The scene you are looking at below are where the Parliament Buildings of Canada in Ottawa are situated.  This was Ottawa Circa 1832.  This work was used to solidify Canada’s bid to have the Rideau Canal designated as a World Heritage Site. 

 

 

…Moving right along,...

 

2006

What you are looking at here is the other end of the Rideau Canal during the same period as the Ottawa Locks.  I did this solely in 2006, seventeen years ago.  I can’t remember how I generated the topology.  I remember something about an Excell file, but too long ago.  This is the first Fort Henry Kingston Ontario circa 1832.  There is a new Fort Henry today that sits over this site.  As with the Ottawa Locks we used original dwgs. from Britain.    You can't see this well, but the fort bends to conform to the topology.  

 

 

 

,,,Moving right along again….

 

2017

This project was the subject of a Vectorworks Article.  2017 was the one hundred year anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge in France.  On that day in was front page news all day in Canada, Britain and France.  It would have been in the news of most countries as the event was attended by a now King, his sons and the heads of state of several countries.

The Canadian army contracted me to reconstruct five square miles of the Battlefield in 1917.  This included ~120 miles of Allied/German Trenching, tunnels and dugouts below ground, all the equipment, uniforms, guns, etc.  Again, site modifiers would be woefully underwhelming.

I used C4D sculpting tools to accurately create the trenches.  I could have done it in Vectorworks, but I would have needed much more computing power and time.

 

 

Kind regards...Paul

[Jeff Prince]

I guess the take away here is you can take your advice from people in the trenches that know how the tools work, or people who play with trenches and software that is not Vectorworks.  Either way is viable, one is useful for achieving the stated goal.

[VIRTUALENVIRONS]

Jeff....you promised.  Lest we forget.