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P Retondo

Something like Paper space

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One of the few big advantages of AutoCAD over Vector Works is their Paperspace capability. This allows us to compose a sheet from various elements of a project, displayed in any location on the sheet and at any scale desired. See complaint by CARMELLHILL2 in the main discussion forum about plotting multiple floors on one sheet. Like most of us, he probably arranges his layers so that all floors are registered with each other. "Pulling apart" these overlaid layers is not possible in VW, no matter how you set up a sheet. It seems to me that you could fairly easily provide us with this feature. The layer is printed on the page according to the way (0,0) is related to the page. Just allow us the ability to break that link, and to customize the relationship of a layer's origin to the page, for each layer. This should be a graphic tool, like dragging a thumbnail of the layer's (or multiple layers') content around a representation of the sheet. Then, allow the "scale" of each layer to be set differently in different sheet setups - you have printer scaling, this might be an extension of the same algorithm. Both of these features should be extensions of the existing sheet setup dialog box - a "Drawing Setup" within Sheet Setup. Do this, and you will have something better than AutoCAD's convoluted Paperspace.

[This message has been edited by P Retondo (edited 07-28-2001).]

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Layerllinking takes care of everything that you describe. Have you tried adjusting the target layer scale? Using position loci for easier selection and precise registration? Using layer color for on-screen identification? Using saved sheets and scripts for quicker navigation?

I show multiple floor plans on the same sheet all the time for the same 3D model that generates the elevations -- and the same drawing also has the site plan with linked layers at smaller scale.

And yes, it is indeed something better than Autocad's convoluted Paperspace. VW8.5.2/mac

[This message has been edited by Archken (edited 07-29-2001).]

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Dear Archken,

Thanks for your reply. How do you show a first and second floor plan, that you created on top of each other, side by side on the same plotted sheet? Okay, I answered my own question. Linked layers were designed to put separate 3D layers into one for simultaneous viewing of an elevation constructed from multiple floor plans, etc. But you can separate two plans on the linked layer (after unlocking them) and show them side by side, without disturbing the source layers. And objects on the linked layer are automatically updated when you change the source layers. So far so good. You can also change the scale of your linked layer, and it works the same way. So you could put together a sheet composed of linked layers to do what Paperspace does. Is this what you are suggesting?

If so, NNA - it looks like "linked layers" are really more powerful than your manual suggests. How about making this an easy process by creating an interface called 'Drawing Setup' to guide people through it? 'Drawing Setup' would automatically create a linked layer if the user wants the drawing to appear at a different scale, or located differently with respect to the page, than it does in the source layer.

[This message has been edited by P Retondo (edited 07-30-2001).]

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Exactly.

Another way I've tried to use them less successfully: to layerlink a plan into a layer of 2d elevations, composed the old-fashioned way, with lines from adjacent plan and/or section. Fine in concept, but the machine (It was W95, P233, VW 8.5.2) kind of bogged down with the layerlink. Interesting that a full copy (not a symbol) of the plan was far less taxing for the program / computer.

[This message has been edited by Carl Burns (edited 08-03-2001).]

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Like Paper space ... almost. I've discovered that line weights remain constant in the various scales in a linked layer, just as they would if you changed a layer's scale, different from printer scaling. Fortunately, there is an option to scale text.

Scaling lineweights is handled adequately, but inconveniently, in AutoCAD. To implement a Drawing Setup utility, scaling lineweights should be automatic, with an option to set the scale factor. It would be part of that dialog box.

Any reaction from NNA to these ideas? I've heard lots of AutoCAD devotees say that the lack of Paper space functionality is their major reason for not liking VectorWorks. Their other argument is that they like xrefs.

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layer links work great for alot of things, but the one thing it cant help is if you have a detail sheet with multiple scales in it. if you use VA like i do, then you have to have lots of detail sheets at different scale, and then spend the time editing the saved sheets to pull up the correct layers.

when i used to work in acad, i could have all my details in model space at one to one, and then put as many different viewports in my paperspace and what ever scale i chose. some thing similiar to this would be nice to have, since you could set up the files more quickly, and ultimately have a more condensed set of drawings.

if anyone has a suggestion on how to do what i just spoke ofm i would love to hear it.

thanks

------------------

rich carrroll

carrollarchitects

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Originally posted by rcarch:

"...if you use VA like i do, then you have to have lots of detail sheets at different scale, and then spend the time editing the saved sheets to pull up the correct layers."

Perhaps "detail sheets at different scales" aren't necessary, just detail layers @ different scales. Use visibility to see/show the different scale layers on a single (or more) resultant multi-scaled sheet.

Details just need to be located, within each layer, to show up in the right place on the final sheet, when veiwed with all visible layers.

If drawing all details, even those of different scales, together is convenient, why not do that on a detail layer, scale A, later moving details to other scale layers as necessary via OI pallette. Pretty easy.

Do you use many layers within each scale group?

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quote:

Originally posted by rcarch:

layer links work great for alot of things, but the one thing it cant help is if you have a detail sheet with multiple scales in it. if you use VA like i do, then you have to have lots of detail sheets at different scale, and then spend the time editing the saved sheets to pull up the correct layers.

As Carl says, you can set up a sheet with multiple layers at different scales. But, as I read your question, it seems that you are already doing that. Your problem seems to be with having to changing your saved sheets for some reason. I would suggest that you should have a standard detail sheet setup which has one layer for each of your possible detail scales (e.g., layers "Detail 1 1.5", "Detail 1 3", "Detail 1 6", Detail 1 Full", etc.). Then, to add or move details around, you wouldn't have to add a new layer - just create, or cut and paste, the drawing into the layer you already have. I have used a separate layer for all drawing titles, so they can be standardized at one scale, and set up my drawing titles as a symbol, linked to records, for easy editing of text strings. If you are used to ACAD Paperspace, you have to discard your assumptions about the ACAD function of layers and realize that one of the major roles for layers in VW is to set up sheets or views.

I think you are pointing to a difficulty with the "Save Sheets" utility, at least in versions up through 8.5.2. When you add or delete a layer, it can play havoc with ALL of your sheet setups. I have learned to make any new layer "invisible" at creation, otherwise it can pop up in sheets you didn't want it to. It seems as though the program could manage changes to layers more thoroughly.

[This message has been edited by P Retondo (edited 08-13-2001).]

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you are both correct actually - i kind of go back and forth between both methods. i actually use vwa setup on each new project, so having a standard template does not work to well for me any more (i used to have on before architect was released). it looks like v9 gives a little more initial control to setup multiple detail sheets with varying layers, but i have not really explored it yet, since i am reluctant to migrate at this point.

thanks for your input

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It's not the scales I'm having trouble with, it's the cropping. In order to show and enlarged portion of a building I have to draw these awkward masking boxing that need to be locked and sometimes don't print to a Post Script printer correctly.

Clipping an objects visibilty could either be resolved in Workgroup Referencing or in Layer Linking.

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GJ

I've taken to working backwards in this regard. Link your enlarged plan back to your general plan. I did this with a project where I had 2 identical buildings, they were mirror images. I linked my enlarged plan of one building back to the site plan and duplicated and mirrored the link. Both links updated flawlessly.

[This message has been edited by MikeB (edited 08-31-2001).]

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