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Styled door and window classes in remodel.


Ramon PG

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8 minutes ago, Ramon PG said:

how do you deal with walls? Seems there is no way of avoiding having three styles for each wall: Existing, Demo and New? So GB, CMU, Concrete, etc. need three styles. Or not...?

 

See earlier comments. You don't need to duplicate styles. In my case, my existing walls tend to be certain types of construction + my proposed walls other types of construction so I can just make the insertion class of the former 'Walls-Existing' + the insertion class of the latter 'Walls-Proposed' + everything automatically goes into the correct class when I draw it. If certain Walls I've drawn in the 'Walls-Existing' class are going to be demolished I just reassign those walls to the 'Wall-Demolished' class on a wall by wall basis. There's nothing complicated about it. Changing a Wall object's container class after the fact doesn't affect its style status.

 

I guess if you have projects where the existing walls + the proposed walls are exactly the same kind of construction + the project is on a scale where manually reassigning wall objects to a different class is going to be a problem then yes in that case you might want to create separate 'new' + 'existing' Wall styles which are identical except for the insertion class setting. But even then, another option would be to just change the insertion class for the Wall style in the Preferences before insertion: yes the resultant Walls would be unstyled but for me most of the time that wouldn't be a problem. It would still be the same Wall in terms of the construction. The only issue would be if you then needed to make style-wide changes to those Walls but I rarely do this.

 

I think you just need to try it out + see what works best for you.

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8 hours ago, Tom W. said:
9 hours ago, jeff prince said:

AutoCAD has “layer states”, which are like saved views in Vectorworks, but applicable to viewports on sheet layers, something Vectorworks should have for class/design layer manipulation,

 

That sounds good!

 

 

Hmmmh ...

May be a feature in the VP cases ....

 

I have very little 2D Plan career.

Avoided that in Microstation nearly completely.

But in VW even I was able to create SLs with SLVP pretty quickly and manageable to 80%.

 

But I still not really able to control ACAD styled paper space behavior in Bricscad.

It feels like there are at least 4 separate independent Scaling options,

(by Sheet, Viewport, Line Styles, ....)

which partly overlap or influence each other ....

So far I did not manage to to bring all content together to a desired Scale.

And if you are in a Viewport, accidentally using the scroll wheel, will change your VP scale

and such things.

 

 

OK, access to Saved Views for SLVPs would be nice.

But so far I was a great fan of VW's Organization Palette and happy with it - in Visibility Mode ......

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3 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

See earlier comments. You don't need to duplicate styles. In my case, my existing walls tend to be certain types of construction + my proposed walls other types of construction so I can just make the insertion class of the former 'Walls-Existing' + the insertion class of the latter 'Walls-Proposed' + everything automatically goes into the correct class when I draw it. If certain Walls I've drawn in the 'Walls-Existing' class are going to be demolished I just reassign those walls to the 'Wall-Demolished' class on a wall by wall basis. There's nothing complicated about it. Changing a Wall object's container class after the fact doesn't affect its style status.

 

I guess if you have projects where the existing walls + the proposed walls are exactly the same kind of construction + the project is on a scale where manually reassigning wall objects to a different class is going to be a problem then yes in that case you might want to create separate 'new' + 'existing' Wall styles which are identical except for the insertion class setting. But even then, another option would be to just change the insertion class for the Wall style in the Preferences before insertion: yes the resultant Walls would be unstyled but for me most of the time that wouldn't be a problem. It would still be the same Wall in terms of the construction. The only issue would be if you then needed to make style-wide changes to those Walls but I rarely do this.

 

I think you just need to try it out + see what works best for you.

 

I understand then that you do not use wall components? You differentiate walls with hatches and classes, the way I did before styles?

 

I am not sure how you use "insertion class" in styled walls. 

Edited by Ramon PG
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20 minutes ago, Ramon PG said:

I understand then that you do not use wall components?

 

Yes I use wall components. And I use Materials to set the graphic attributes of those components + assign them data. The Walls are styled.

 

22 minutes ago, Ramon PG said:

I am not sure how you use "insertion class" in styled walls. 

 

In the 'Insertion Options' tab of the Wall style settings you specify what class you want Walls of that style to go into on insertion. This is just the container class for the Wall + controls the overall visibility of the Wall. So a Wall inserted into a 'Wall-Demolished' class can easily be made invisible for proposed drawings.

 

At the end of the day you can place your walls in whatever classes you want after the fact. The insertion class just allows you to preset it ahead of time on a style by style basis.

 

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21 hours ago, jeff prince said:

Attached is a quickie example I just made up to illustrate the point.

 

Thanks for posting the file.  Having a clean simple sample file to reverse engineer is incredibly useful.  Is there a reason you placed the Walls on separate Design Layers?

 

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1 hour ago, E|FA said:

Is there a reason you placed the Walls on separate Design Layers?

Habit from pre Data viz workflow adoption 🙂

 

You can completely turn off stuff in the data visualization by changing fills and pens to none.  I think I was a little sloppy in the demo plan viewport in that regard because I neglected to turn off the fill for the new walls, which you’ll notice if you turn on the “new” design layer in that demo viewport on the bottom.

Edited by jeff prince
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46 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

I neglected to turn off the fill for the mew walls

You mean turn "on" the fill.  I figured that out.  It made the sample file even more valuable as a learning exercise.

Edited by E|FA
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13 hours ago, zoomer said:

OK, access to Saved Views for SLVPs would be nice.

But so far I was a great fan of VW's Organization Palette and happy with it - in Visibility Mode ......

 

It just feels I am often doing the same work twice: first I am applying class/layer visibility options in Saved Views on the design layer then I'm having to reapply the same visibilities to VPs on sheet layers + remember what they were. I use the Organisation dialog in Visibilities mode a lot too but it feels a lot of work to get there (several clicks) plus you can't do anything else whilst it's open (discussed extensively elsewhere): ideally you'd be able to have the Organisation dialog open + navigate between different sheets at the same time + zoom in to VPs to examine them. Otherwise you're looking through a list of hundreds of VPs trying to remember what needs turned on where...

 

But even better would be to have an 'Apply Saved View Visibilities to Viewport' option (+ choose the SV in question).

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I

22 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

Yes I use wall components. And I use Materials to set the graphic attributes of those components + assign them data. The Walls are styled.

 

 

In the 'Insertion Options' tab of the Wall style settings you specify what class you want Walls of that style to go into on insertion. This is just the container class for the Wall + controls the overall visibility of the Wall. So a Wall inserted into a 'Wall-Demolished' class can easily be made invisible for proposed drawings.

 

At the end of the day you can place your walls in whatever classes you want after the fact. The insertion class just allows you to preset it ahead of time on a style by style basis.

 

 

I am still confused by "If certain Walls I've drawn in the 'Walls-Existing' class are going to be demolished I just reassign those walls to the 'Wall-Demolished' class on a wall by wall basis." When you reassign the wall class the wall style changes? Or is it the same wall style and only the graphic representation changes (that's the way I used to do it but wall styles confused me bc this seemingly was not possible)? 

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1 hour ago, Ramon PG said:

 

I

 

I am still confused by "If certain Walls I've drawn in the 'Walls-Existing' class are going to be demolished I just reassign those walls to the 'Wall-Demolished' class on a wall by wall basis." When you reassign the wall class the wall style changes? Or is it the same wall style and only the graphic representation changes (that's the way I used to do it but wall styles confused me bc this seemingly was not possible)? 

 

I'm quite confused myself now to be honest. What was the original question again? 🙂

 

The graphic attributes of my Walls are determined by the components + the Materials those components are using. I am not using classes to assign attributes, only control visibility. So there are the component classes which allow me to turn individual components on + off, and there is the container class which the Wall as a whole resides in + allows me to turn the whole wall on + off. (The only time I use classes to control attributes is in VPs where I have a small scale floor plan + want to show the walls with a solid fill or hatch: then I turn the components off + use class overrides to change the attributes of the container class).

 

My walls are all either in the 'Wall-Existing' class, the 'Wall-Demolished' class or the 'Wall-Proposed' class. I choose which class I want a certain wall style to go into on insertion via the style settings but because this parameter is set to be By Instance I can change the class of any wall after insertion if I want/need to. This has no bearing on its styled status or it's attributes. So I might draw ten existing walls using a style that inserts them into the 'Wall-Existing' class, then decide to demolish two of them so I select these two walls + change their class to 'Wall-Demolished'. That's it. It's very simple.

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@Luka Stefanovic  In the REFURBISHMENT WORKFLOWS: CONSTRUCTION PHASING USING RECORD FORMATS AND DATA VIS webinar you presented, what is the reasoning for putting the demolished walls in both a demo Class AND a demo phase Record? Why not rely on the data vis only, similar to the way existing and proposed new build items are handled?

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7 hours ago, E|FA said:

@Luka Stefanovic  In the REFURBISHMENT WORKFLOWS: CONSTRUCTION PHASING USING RECORD FORMATS AND DATA VIS webinar you presented, what is the reasoning for putting the demolished walls in both a demo Class AND a demo phase Record? Why not rely on the data vis only, similar to the way existing and proposed new build items are handled?

 

He is using the Demo class to control the visibility of the demolished Walls.

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On 5/5/2023 at 1:28 PM, Tom W. said:

 

I'm quite confused myself now to be honest. What was the original question again? 🙂

 

The graphic attributes of my Walls are determined by the components + the Materials those components are using. I am not using classes to assign attributes, only control visibility. So there are the component classes which allow me to turn individual components on + off, and there is the container class which the Wall as a whole resides in + allows me to turn the whole wall on + off. (The only time I use classes to control attributes is in VPs where I have a small scale floor plan + want to show the walls with a solid fill or hatch: then I turn the components off + use class overrides to change the attributes of the container class).

 

My walls are all either in the 'Wall-Existing' class, the 'Wall-Demolished' class or the 'Wall-Proposed' class. I choose which class I want a certain wall style to go into on insertion via the style settings but because this parameter is set to be By Instance I can change the class of any wall after insertion if I want/need to. This has no bearing on its styled status or it's attributes. So I might draw ten existing walls using a style that inserts them into the 'Wall-Existing' class, then decide to demolish two of them so I select these two walls + change their class to 'Wall-Demolished'. That's it. It's very simple.

 

The original question was how to control doors with classes in styled walls, and I was given the explanation and now I can. 

 

So, instead of "Replace..." (wall style) you just change class? That's what I did before wall styles, then it became very confusing, to me at least, and now I have 3 wall styles for every type of wall (CONC-New, CONC-Exist, CONC-Demo, etc).

 

 

image.png.ec40754cf0184240f061fdb2ea8b2177.png

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ramon PG
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On 5/8/2023 at 9:01 AM, Ramon PG said:

 

The original question was how to control doors with classes in styled walls, and I was given the explanation and now I can. 

 

So, instead of "Replace..." (wall style) you just change class? That's what I did before wall styles, then it became very confusing, to me at least, and now I have 3 wall styles for every type of wall (CONC-New, CONC-Exist, CONC-Demo, etc).

 

 

image.png.ec40754cf0184240f061fdb2ea8b2177.png

 

 

 

 

@Tom W. I never quite understood how do you change walls. You just change class (the old fashioned way) or you have styled walls like I have and choose "replace"? 

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13 minutes ago, Ramon PG said:

@Tom W. I never quite understood how do you change walls. You just change class (the old fashioned way) or you have styled walls like I have and choose "replace"? 

 

If I want to change one type of wall for another type of wall I will replace the style.

 

If I don't want to change the wall itself, just change its class, I will change the class.

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On 5/7/2023 at 6:09 PM, E|FA said:

That still leaves the question to @Luka Stefanovic, is there any reason to do both?

Sorry I'm a bit late to the conversation, but the reason for using a class in that particular webinar was that at the time, you couldn't hide objects completely using Data Viz. Now you can so you could use only Record Format and Data Viz to render objects invisible in both Design Layer view and Viewports. However there is still a benefit of using a dedicated Demo class and dedicated proposed and existing sets of Design Layers - you can use Grey or Show / Snap other Layers or Classes. While Data Viz does make pen and fill invisible, the objects are still there and you could accidentally select them or join a Wall with an invisible one. So it's a kind of safety net, both workflows are valid and will do what you need graphically, it's just a matter of workflow preference.

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