"Howdens" (UK kitchens) base cabinets have wrong dimensions

[line-weight]

It's a little while since I last fought with the kitchen cabinet tools.

 

This time round, I was pleased to notice that the VW library seems to offer "Howdens Universal base cabinet style" as an option.

 

Howdens is a popular kitchen supplier in the UK. Their cabinets mostly follow standard sizes that most UK suppliers follow. So in initial planning stages, it makes sense to use their cabinets at least as "placeholders" in setting out a basic layout.

 

Well, I thought, great, I don't have to go through the usual process of tweaking the VW cabinet settings to get to something close to a standard UK cabinet. All the Howdens ones are there ready for me.

 

But it didn't take long to discover that they have incorrect dimensions. For example there seems to be a confusion between cabinet depth including or not including the door thickness. And the corner cabinets seem simply not to make any sense. I can make a guess at what's happened with those - someone has input some overall dimensions correct for an L shaped unit but not correct for the straight type unit offered. In other words, these items have been prepared without care and proper understanding. So it turns out to be just another method of wasting my time.

[Tom W.]

I read the first half of your post + began thinking damn why did I spend all that time creating all my own custom Howdens symbols, then read the rest of it + thought I'm glad I did...

 

  

 

 

[Christiaan]

If you get hold of VW UK I'm sure they'll sort that out.

[line-weight]

28 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I read the first half of your post + began thinking damn why did I spend all that time creating all my own custom Howdens symbols, then read the rest of it + thought I'm glad I did...

 

  

 

 

 

Have you built them using the VW cabinet tool, or from scratch?

 

I've considered building my own cabinets from scratch because then I can build them fully correctly with things the VW tool doesn't let me have (for example the rear service void) but of course then I lose all the parametric stuff like changing a 600mm wide cabinet to a 500mm wide one at the flick of a switch.

[line-weight]

32 minutes ago, Christiaan said:

If you get hold of VW UK I'm sure they'll sort that out.

 

Yes I might try that.

 

I shouldn't really have to though - it feels that zero quality control has been applied to stuff released into a public library.

 

Just to illustrate....here are some options if i just want a basic corner unit.

 

 

I can choose between 3 models, "800", "900", "1000". What do those model nos refer to? Something in the Howdens naming system? Don't think so. The basic width? Well, an increase in 100 in the model number seems to be reflected in an increase in 50mm in the actual dimensions. So, doesn't look like it.

 

Anyway if I choose model "800" I get this, 1031mm long.

 

 

Of course this isn't going to work. Neither of those numbers, 612 or 631 can be right. The standard Howdens cabinet depth (minus doors) is 575mm.

 

This is obvious as soon as you try and place this "corner unit" in a corner between two standard units.

 

Where do those 1031 and 631 numbers come from? I reckon they come from the overall dimensions of the actual Howdens corner units, which look like this:

 

And it seems available as 931x931 or 631x631.

 

What VW is offering me, the "model 800" is some kind of fictional hybrid between that and a 1000mm long standard unit which you can also use in a corner situation:

 

 

 

[Tom W.]

25 minutes ago, line-weight said:

 

Have you built them using the VW cabinet tool, or from scratch?

 

I've considered building my own cabinets from scratch because then I can build them fully correctly with things the VW tool doesn't let me have (for example the rear service void) but of course then I lose all the parametric stuff like changing a 600mm wide cabinet to a 500mm wide one at the flick of a switch.

 

I built them from scratch because I use a lot of Howdens gear + it allows me to very quickly assemble a whole kitchen with all the individual components + it all be visually + dimensionally correct + I get an automatic take-off including product codes etc for placing the order + automatic labelling via Data Tags. So I have a whole library of cabinets for all the different styles/sizes: there is nothing parametric about it. Although each symbol does contain a slab style front + a shaker style front + I can switch between them using class visibility.

 

The drawer base units for example you really need as individual symbols anyway as the different widths have different drawer configurations so not really suitable for parametric control.

 

But this is all because I'm looking to do something final + precise, that I can use to place the order + give to the contractors to fit, not initial planning stage design. So for me it's worth it.

 

 

[Tom W.]

10 minutes ago, line-weight said:

Where do those 1031 and 631 numbers come from?

 

[line-weight]

13 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

 

Where's that from... a Howdens document?

[Andre L]

On 1/30/2023 at 2:21 PM, line-weight said:

 

Yes I might try that.

 

I shouldn't really have to though - it feels that zero quality control has been applied to stuff released into a public library.

 

Just to illustrate....here are some options if i just want a basic corner unit.

 

 

I can choose between 3 models, "800", "900", "1000". What do those model nos refer to? Something in the Howdens naming system? Don't think so. The basic width? Well, an increase in 100 in the model number seems to be reflected in an increase in 50mm in the actual dimensions. So, doesn't look like it.

 

Anyway if I choose model "800" I get this, 1031mm long.

 

 

Of course this isn't going to work. Neither of those numbers, 612 or 631 can be right. The standard Howdens cabinet depth (minus doors) is 575mm.

 

This is obvious as soon as you try and place this "corner unit" in a corner between two standard units.

 

Where do those 1031 and 631 numbers come from? I reckon they come from the overall dimensions of the actual Howdens corner units, which look like this:

 

And it seems available as 931x931 or 631x631.

 

What VW is offering me, the "model 800" is some kind of fictional hybrid between that and a 1000mm long standard unit which you can also use in a corner situation:

 

 

 

 

The catalog says, "800 Hi-Line Corner Base Unit." H890 x W1031 XD631. The width 1031mm doesn't not reflect to the name of the model. Looks like the first three Corner Base Units model name does not match the Width. The pdf that Howden provided Tewkesbury "Range Summary" seems to be missed typed saying 800. If you look at all Sink Base Units for example 800 Drawer-Line Sink Base Unit (LH & RH) H890 x W800 x D575. The width 800mm does match the title/model in the pdf. See images please.

 

 

"Where do those 1031 and 631 numbers come from?" 

They came from the Howden catalog see image. 800 Hi-Line Corner Base Unit - Height 890 x Width 1031 x Depth 631. 

 

"I can choose between 3 models, "800", "900", "1000". What do those model nos refer to? Something in the Howdens naming system? Don't think so. The basic width? Well, an increase in 100 in the model number seems to be reflected in an increase in 50mm in the actual dimensions. So, doesn't look like it." 

Please see Howden catalog PDF. H890 x W1031 x D631 and the dialog box in VW does have it correct. The Model #800, 900, and 1000 are wrong for the first three Corner Base Units. Need to be fixed in the VW dialog box to say Model - 1031 Hi-Line Corner Base Unit to match Height 890mm Width 1031mm and Depth 631mm and etc.... Look at SInk Base Units and these match the Howden PDF catalog see image.

 

-Overall, this will be fixed in future release. 

 

Thanks. 

 

[Tom W.]

14 minutes ago, Andre L said:

The Model #800, 900, and 1000 are wrong for the first three Corner Base Units. Need to be fixed in the VW dialog box to say Model - 1031 Hi-Line Corner Base Unit to match Height 890mm Width 1031mm and Depth 631mm and etc....

 

The reason the Hi-Line Corner Base Units are named the way they are is because the 800 (for example) refers to the width of the unit whereas the 1031mm is the overall width including the offset from the wall:

 

 

This is the offset required for the unit to align with the unit adjoining it perpendicularly:

 

 

[Andre L]

2 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

The reason the Hi-Line Corner Base Units are named the way they are is because the 800 (for example) refers to the width of the unit whereas the 1031mm is the overall width including the offset from the wall:

 

 

This is the offset required for the unit to align with the unit adjoining it perpendicularly:

 

 

 

Okay. The catalog in Vectorworks was built correct based from the Howden catalog. Then I must of misunderstood of what is the issue? @Tom W.

[line-weight]

Part of the confusion is that there are two types of corner unit. As can be seen in the Howdens catalogue extract above.

 

One type has the 800/900/1000 length variations.

 

The other is the "model 931" type which seems to have variations of what's inside it.

 

The model of the corner unit currently provided in VW doesn't match any of these. It's mainly the models themselves that need to be corrected, rather than the model numbers in the list.

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by line-weight

[line-weight]

2 months later this has still not been fixed; the cabinets in the library are still wrong.

 

@Andre L do you need further assistance in understanding what needs to be corrected?

[Andre L]

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

2 months later this has still not been fixed; the cabinets in the library are still wrong.

 

@Andre L do you need further assistance in understanding what needs to be corrected?

@line-weightNo. The cabinet tools are being redesigned for 2024. The engineers will redesign the geometry. All content will be revaluated.   If you like, please give more details of the issue. Thanks

[line-weight]

I think the issue is fully explained in posts from me and @Tom W. above but I would be happy to clarify anything.

 

If the current library objects aren't going to be corrected, I would suggest that they should be removed from the library, otherwise they just cause confusion and wasted time for people who try to use them.

[Andre L]

3 hours ago, line-weight said:

I think the issue is fully explained in posts from me and @Tom W. above but I would be happy to clarify anything.

 

If the current library objects aren't going to be corrected, I would suggest that they should be removed from the library, otherwise they just cause confusion and wasted time for people who try to use them.

We will remove these cabinet types from the catalog for VW 2023 SP5. Thanks

[line-weight]

Sorry to be annoying but I don't think these cabinet types have been removed from the catalogue.

 

I was checking having installed VW2024 SP0 (wondering if a nice new and correct set might now be offered, based on the improved cabinet tool, but I don't think it is).

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by line-weight

[Andre L]

@line-weight Those cabinet type were removed for 2023 and have been re-designed for 2024. The corner cabinets have the correct sizes. Im not sure what you are referring too?

[line-weight]

Hi @Andre L - ok, firstly I see, yes there is a set using the new cabinet tool, which show up as "Shaker" style in the resource browser whereas the old ones are called "Universal" and I think are in a legacy library location.

 

 

 

However - if I use that "Howdens Shaker Base Cabinet style", which is built with the new cabinet tool, those corner units, the ones discussed earlier in the thread, are still not right. This becomes clear if you try to assemble them together with two other units to make a corner, even with the 231mm set-off distance. The corner units should match the 575mm front-to-back depth of the regular units. The corner unit in this screenshot is "model no 800R".

 

 

That the cabinet is 631mm deep instead of 575mm is the same error I highlighted near the start of the thread, although I certainly see this is all quite confusing (and I confused it more by not understanding the model numbering) and the way Howdens label things is not all that helpful. But if you look at @Tom W.'s post above it shows how these corner units are supposed to go together. Note the little L-shaped projecting piece that forms the actual corner. I think 631mm is probably giving the dimension to the nose of this.

 

By the way, the cabinet legs also need to be set back from the front, otherwise it would not be able to install a kickplate flush with or set back from the cabinet fronts.

 

 

[line-weight]

Also -

 

If I select door style "Clerkenwell" I get this

 

 

Which is a plain fronted cabinet, but the door should sit in front of the cabinet sides, not between them.

 

Like this

 

https://www.howdens.com/kitchens/fitted-kitchens/clerkenwell-gloss/clerkenwell-gloss-white

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by line-weight

[Andre L]

@line-weight Howdens specifications are very limited about these cabinets. Also, I can't find any model numbers for the actual cabinets. From what the PDF shows, the nomenclature is size (800mm) and Left or Right door swing is what we are using. The PDF's is very general, and it only provides DXWXH. The Drawer-Line Corner Base Units in the PDF say D631mm and the Drawer-Line Base Untis is D575mm. We can correct the legs to move back to 92.5mm from the front. As for the Clerkenwell doors these should be overlay not insert. Will make these fixes for the next update. Also @Tom W. provided reference for the corner cabinets.

 

[line-weight]

On 9/14/2023 at 2:50 PM, Andre L said:

@line-weight Howdens specifications are very limited about these cabinets. Also, I can't find any model numbers for the actual cabinets. From what the PDF shows, the nomenclature is size (800mm) and Left or Right door swing is what we are using. The PDF's is very general, and it only provides DXWXH. The Drawer-Line Corner Base Units in the PDF say D631mm and the Drawer-Line Base Untis is D575mm. We can correct the legs to move back to 92.5mm from the front. As for the Clerkenwell doors these should be overlay not insert. Will make these fixes for the next update. Also @Tom W. provided reference for the corner cabinets.

 

 

Thank you for looking at this and for planning the corrections.

 

If you look at @Tom W.'s reference you will see where the 631mm comes from. It's because of the small L-shaped piece projecting from the front.

 

If Howdens general literature doesn't show sufficient detail then I would say you need to get in touch with them and ask for the necessary drawings.

 

In my opinion: then someone who understands how these units work and how they are used in the real world, needs to take a look at the models to check them and make sure they are correct, before they are added to any VW libraries. Otherwise it ends up wasting users' time, adding objects to a model and then later discovering that they are inaccurate.

 

As a side issue, it's a bit disappointing that the new cabinet tool still can't build certain types of very standard kitchen unit, like corner units. And it can't represent the service void at the back, as I mentioned in another thread.

[Tom W.]

I hope they don't make the Cabinet Tool too good because I recently invested in interiorXS!!! 😄

[Tom W.]

If it's any help to either of you these pages from the installation manual show the setting out for the different corner units:

  

 

Not sure if this info is on the website anywhere, I've never seen it.

[line-weight]

The thing is, it's kind of academic because as far as I can see, the new cabinet tool is unable to build this type of corner unit. I think the closest you can get is to make it out of two units:

 

 

In fact you can get closer with the now legacy, old cabinet tool:

 

 

Because it lets you have an "uneven length corner" but I don't think the new tool does, which seems like a bit of a regression.

 

[Andre L]

On 9/14/2023 at 9:50 AM, Andre L said:

@line-weight Howdens specifications are very limited about these cabinets. Also, I can't find any model numbers for the actual cabinets. From what the PDF shows, the nomenclature is size (800mm) and Left or Right door swing is what we are using. The PDF's is very general, and it only provides DXWXH. The Drawer-Line Corner Base Units in the PDF say D631mm and the Drawer-Line Base Untis is D575mm. We can correct the legs to move back to 92.5mm from the front. As for the Clerkenwell doors these should be overlay not insert. Will make these fixes for the next update. Also @Tom W. provided reference for the corner cabinets.

 

 

The Drawer-Line Corner Base Units and Base Hi-Line Corner Units depths have been corrected to 575mm and the front legs have been moved back from the front of the cabinet. I created an enhancement request to support specific customization for offsetting the leg insertions. The tool currently only has one parameter (globally) to set the Apply/Kick/Inset front, back, left and right. However, cannot set the back or the sides with specific number settings to control each side independently. The doors have been set to overlays. Also added appliance tower configuration. These changes will be in the next 2024 update.