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VW 2023 - Window PIO Issue - Insertion Points / Offset in Wall Depth


zoomer

Question

In the past I was always able to control the position of my Windows precisely

with respect to my Wall Components.

There was an Offset Value in general top tab of Windows PIO settings.

 

At some point (VW 2020 or 2022 ?) there was a small change to Windows,

(Probably in preparation for coming changes for Walls and Wall Closures)

which eliminated that Offset and insertion depth control.

 

 

I thought I should retry with Wall Closures iteration 2. in VW 2023.

 

1.

I tried all kind of "Insertion" markers and settings in both Wall Styl or overwriting

in Window Style.

While it all looks perfect in Wall Closures Preview, my Windows Jamb insertion

depth in 3D geometry or 2D representation does not seem to move to where I want

or to move at all ?

 

Is someone able to bring my Window insertion position aligned ?

(outer face of Jamb = outer face of Concrete Core Component)

 

 

Screenshot_2023-01-02_11_54_07.thumb.jpg.52969c0945c987e1a61dcea0bfb57281.jpg

 

 

 

2.

I try to model my existing Sill situation.

Basically it should be simplified to have one Board of 2 cm Aluminium

on the outer side from the Jamb. Extending Wall Opening 2 cm on sides

and outer Wall Face by 4 cm at the front.

And on the inner side a 2 cm Board of Marble, extending sides and front

by 2 cm.

 

Screenshot_2023-01-02_11_54_47.thumb.jpg.5836352884a8d4af04fb7e83d18d660e.jpg

 

 

 

I think I already tried all 3 Sill Options and through all of their Settings.

So far it looks like I should just switch off Sill option in PIO and model

everything Silly manually.

 

But maybe someone is able to tweak PIOs parametric Sill Settings to

get the desired Geometry ?

 

BIM_ISSUE-WINDOW.vwx

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9 minutes ago, zoomer said:

Is someone able to bring my Window insertion position aligned ?

(outer face of Jamb = outer face of Concrete Core Component)

 

You need to set the insert location in the Plug-in Object Style Options to left edge of core component:

 

1152718215_Screenshot2023-01-02at11_15_40.thumb.png.02e5b370bc1e45738ceb80903e263ed4.png

 

1798552544_Screenshot2023-01-02at11_15_10.thumb.png.3a3830ee294f3962df76f1f53d1b3f54.png

 

I don't understand how the new 'Insert Loc.' column in the Wall component settings works. You can't seem to edit the actual settings here. There is the same column in the Wall Closure settings but this affects how the preview displays so at least it has some purpose. But in both cases, the settings don't seem to be tied to the 'actual' settings which are determined by what you enter in the Plug-in Object Style Options. Perhaps @Matt Panzer can explain? I have only just started using VW2023 on a real project.

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Thank you very much Tom !

Perfekt.

 

So the insertion Offset is not really gone - it was just hidden in

new PlugIn Style Object Options Dialog 🙂

(why ?)

 

Hmmh,

But the dialog is locked for me - by Style Settings.

And I can't find how and where to unlock ....

 

Edited by zoomer
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Find the style in the RM + right-click on it there to open the Plug-in Object Style Options. There is discussion elsewhere about how to make these settings more accessible. My preference would be a double-click on the object in the drawing as this is the behaviour for symbols (although bizarrely only flipped instances of symbols but I believe this has been filed as a bug). More things for @Matt Panzer to comment on!

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Yes, I also expected the (parent) Dialog to open from RMB Options or double click,

same as the (parent) Edit Style does.

 

But that will only open a child version of the Dialog, similar to child Window Settings.

 

Now that I know ....

 

So basically we have a parent PIO Style listed in RM as always,

but that also contains an Equivalent parent PIO Style Option.

 

While in Drawing we have our PIO's with access to sylized

- child Settings

- child Object Options

 

And RMB Access to superior parent PIO Style, but not for parent PIO Style Options

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Thought I could add that to my custom Workspace. Seems I can't

 

So I vote to get just direct Access Link Button from child PIO Settings Dialog ....

to switch up to parent PIO Style Dialog

and a Button in child PIO Options Dialog, 

to switch to parent PIO Style Options Dialog.

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48 minutes ago, zoomer said:

But basically I am now pretty happy with VW 2023 Windows Insertion control

and Wall Closure's Component Wrapping.

 

Good Job at VW.

 

 

I agree! I have recently moved a project I started in VW2021 then left dormant for a year into VW2023 + am very happy with how Wall Closures are now working. I am using them properly across the whole model for the first time + am very happy with the results.

 

46 minutes ago, zoomer said:

For 2.

my Sill issues,

(and PIO detail control)

maybe I should try my Windows and/or Doors with WinDoor Plugin.

 

I am just a bit concerned about future compatibility if I switch now

to (deprecated) WinDoor Plugin ....

 

You get better results with the WinDoor sill in 3D + in section than you do with the VW sill but the situation in 2D is the same i.e. the Top/Plan representation of the sill obscures the Wall Closures, rendering it basically unusable. Plus there are certain characteristics of the WinDoor tool I don't like: I mean there are things you can do with the VW tool which you can't with WinDoor which puts me off using it most times.

 

In this project I created my own sill as a hybrid symbol + for the first time I am very happy with how things look in section:

 

241045422_Screenshot2023-01-02at15_46_26.thumb.png.06b514b6001cdb2fa1c7eba7a968026a.png

 

1272429600_Screenshot2023-01-02at15_46_53.png.0f395fa60da895004ff7f9f84a00fc11.png

 

Everything in these VPs is coming from the model: nothing has been added in Annotations.

 

127083984_Screenshot2023-01-02at15_42_18.thumb.png.116beb209aa335015157bc36d157569a.png

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21 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I created my own sill as a hybrid symbol + for the first time I am very happy with how things look in section:

 

 

That is exactly the result that I would want too.

Not sure if it is worth the hybrid Symbol here as I have not many Windows,

but many different Wall depths, Opening sizes and a few Window Frame dimensions ....

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On 1/2/2023 at 11:24 AM, Tom W. said:

I don't understand how the new 'Insert Loc.' column in the Wall component settings works. You can't seem to edit the actual settings here. There is the same column in the Wall Closure settings but this affects how the preview displays so at least it has some purpose. But in both cases, the settings don't seem to be tied to the 'actual' settings which are determined by what you enter in the Plug-in Object Style Options. Perhaps @Matt Panzer can explain?

 

Hi @Matt Panzer be great if you were able to shed some light on this when you had a moment... Thanks!

 

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4 hours ago, Tom W. said:

 

Hi @Matt Panzer be great if you were able to shed some light on this when you had a moment... Thanks!

 

The insert can choose to use:

  1. Its own insert location (window to the left is using the Wall - Centerline)
  2. The insertion location of the Wall from the Edit Wall Style dialog (window in the center)
  3. Or the insertion location of the Wall Closure from the Wall Closure at Inserts dialog (window to the right)

 

image.png

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10 hours ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

The insert can choose to use:

  1. Its own insert location (window to the left is using the Wall - Centerline)
  2. The insertion location of the Wall from the Edit Wall Style dialog (window in the center)
  3. Or the insertion location of the Wall Closure from the Wall Closure at Inserts dialog (window to the right)

 

image.png

 

Ok got it thank you. So the critical thing is what you have the 'Insert Location' drop-down set to in the Plug-in Object Style Options for the Window: this will determine where the object takes its insert location from. My confusion stemmed from the fact that you can still edit the insert location in the Edit Wall Style, Wall Closure at Inserts + Wall Closure dialogs but these settings won't take effect unless you have specified in the Plug-in Object Style Options that you want the Window to do so. So this can result in a situation where in each of these three dialogs you can have the insert location set to a different component - and the respective previews will display things as such - and yet none of them will be correct because you have actually specified a different insert location in Plug-in Object Style Options. With this being the case wouldn't it be better if when you are specifying that the insert location comes from the insert itself, the insert location symbol in these other dialogs is greyed-out + locked so you can't change it, thereby indicating that the setting is being controlled elsewhere? Likewise, if you choose 'Wall - Insert Location' in the Plug-in Object Style Options, then the insert location symbol in the Edit Wall Style dialog becomes active but the same symbol in the Wall Closures + Wall Closure at Inserts dialogs remains greyed-out/locked? And the same if you do it the other way around. This way, whenever you're in any of these dialogs it's clear how the insert is set up + what the current settings are + where you need to go to edit them?

 

Again, this raises the issue of improving access to the Plug-in Object Style Options given how critical these settings are to the way your insert is set up. Would it be possible to include an 'Edit Plug-in Object Style Options' button at the bottom of the 'Plug-in Object Options' dialog? This way you can quickly jump from the first dialog (relating to the object only) to the second (relating to the object's style) + not have to find the style in the RM + right-click on it there as is the only option currently.

 

Thanks!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tom W. said:

My confusion stemmed from the fact that you can still edit the insert location in the Edit Wall Style, Wall Closure at Inserts + Wall Closure dialogs but these settings won't take effect unless you have specified in the Plug-in Object Style Options that you want the Window to do so. So this can result in a situation where in each of these three dialogs you can have the insert location set to a different component - and the respective previews will display things as such - and yet none of them will be correct because you have actually specified a different insert location in Plug-in Object Style Options.

 

That is where I tumbled too.

Or in Wall closure Settings UI, it is not very self explaining that you have to fill checkmarks

in empty columns to make your Settings finally work.

 

While Feature-wise, I think Wall Closures are pretty complete and capable now.

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I think the Wall Closure features are great, but find the interface VERY confusing.  There are too many "places" that control the related settings, and none of them are intuitive.   A UI redesign would be appreciated.  There's a video tutorial by @Matt Panzer in one of the forum threads that is the best explanation of how to control these settings.

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My issue is not with Wall Closures per se but with the Insertion Location settings. I agree that the Wall Closure settings are complex but ultimately they do make sense + in VW2023 are working very well. The problem with the Insertion Location settings - unless I'm missing something - is that you can set them to five different things in five different places with nothing in four of those locations to indicate which of the five settings you are actually using (in my earlier post I thought it was four locations in total but actually it's five!). I can't think of many instances in VW where you are permitted to edit the settings in a dialog + those settings be reflected in the preview pane + yet despite all appearances + with nothing to indicate the contrary they are not having any effect on the object itself, AND be able to do this a total of four times simultaneously for the same object!

 

So for example I can set up a Window in the settings for that object so that the exterior face of the jamb aligns with the left side of the Wall + is offset by -83:

 

1521810085_Screenshot2023-01-29at09_06_00.thumb.png.8e221f273a01c157775043aafa9a684e.png

 

And yet nothing prevents me editing the insert location in the four other dialogs as well + there's nothing telling me that these settings are being controlled elsewhere + so will have no effect on the object:

 

1. In the Edit Wall Style settings:

 

1979564849_Screenshot2023-01-29at10_05_18.thumb.png.a5e345d1e9140346c4d8f2246dd18100.png

 

2. In the Wall Closure at Inserts settings for the Wall Style:

 

1134462919_Screenshot2023-01-29at09_08_35.thumb.png.9f6bb81d06d21097cd61c193b966c6be.png

 

3. In the Wall Closure at Inserts settings for the Wall instance:

 

916740286_Screenshot2023-01-29at09_07_50.thumb.png.d04ea3e885dfacb5483b0a96356bc007.png

 

4. In the Wall Closure settings for the insert/Window:

 

1561664309_Screenshot2023-01-29at09_06_34.thumb.png.e2f47644226670efec876f1181891a7f.png

 

I would love it if in each of these dialogs the insert loc symbol + preview pane reflected the actual characteristics of the object at all times + told you where it was being controlled from rather than having to consult the Plug-in Object Options to find out.

Edited by Tom W.
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On 1/29/2023 at 5:26 AM, Tom W. said:

My issue is not with Wall Closures per se but with the Insertion Location settings. I agree that the Wall Closure settings are complex but ultimately they do make sense + in VW2023 are working very well. The problem with the Insertion Location settings - unless I'm missing something - is that you can set them to five different things in five different places with nothing in four of those locations to indicate which of the five settings you are actually using (in my earlier post I thought it was four locations in total but actually it's five!). I can't think of many instances in VW where you are permitted to edit the settings in a dialog + those settings be reflected in the preview pane + yet despite all appearances + with nothing to indicate the contrary they are not having any effect on the object itself, AND be able to do this a total of four times simultaneously for the same object!

 

So for example I can set up a Window in the settings for that object so that the exterior face of the jamb aligns with the left side of the Wall + is offset by -83:

 

1521810085_Screenshot2023-01-29at09_06_00.thumb.png.8e221f273a01c157775043aafa9a684e.png

 

And yet nothing prevents me editing the insert location in the four other dialogs as well + there's nothing telling me that these settings are being controlled elsewhere + so will have no effect on the object:

 

1. In the Edit Wall Style settings:

 

1979564849_Screenshot2023-01-29at10_05_18.thumb.png.a5e345d1e9140346c4d8f2246dd18100.png

 

2. In the Wall Closure at Inserts settings for the Wall Style:

 

1134462919_Screenshot2023-01-29at09_08_35.thumb.png.9f6bb81d06d21097cd61c193b966c6be.png

 

3. In the Wall Closure at Inserts settings for the Wall instance:

 

916740286_Screenshot2023-01-29at09_07_50.thumb.png.d04ea3e885dfacb5483b0a96356bc007.png

 

4. In the Wall Closure settings for the insert/Window:

 

1561664309_Screenshot2023-01-29at09_06_34.thumb.png.e2f47644226670efec876f1181891a7f.png

 

I would love it if in each of these dialogs the insert loc symbol + preview pane reflected the actual characteristics of the object at all times + told you where it was being controlled from rather than having to consult the Plug-in Object Options to find out.

 

In the dialog coming from a Wall instance or an insert, there is a "Use wall style settings" / "Use wall settings" checkbox at the top that tells you what the wall is using.  The only place I think we can improve the preview is for dialogs coming from the instance because that's the only case we know what the instances insert location is.  We do plan to tweak this for a future version.

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As Matt was alluding to, there is no way to indicate in the component or closure settings of a wall or wall style whether the insert location will be observed, because that is a choice made by each individual insert.  In any given wall some inserts might be using the wall's insert location, some might be using the wall's closure's insert location, some might be overriding the wall's closure configuration with a custom one with its own insert location and using that, and some might be set to other locations individually.  This can seem very complicated at first, but it makes a lot of sense once you figure it out, and you won't need to go digging into all these options every time.

 

Think of it this way - a wall insert always directly controls its own insert location, just like it always did.  You set that from the "Insert" field on the Object Info palette, in the familiar place.  Additionally, any place you are defining a wall component structure (the main components or the wall closure settings of a wall or wall style), you can designate an insert location that makes sense and might be useful for that particular structure.  But it is up to each insert whether it wants to use that or make some other choice for itself.  The wall offers logical suggestions, but the insert itself is always in control, just like it always was.  When you are editing a wall style, wall, or wall closure, all you are doing is editing those logical suggestions that the insert might or might not choose to utilize.  That is why the preview of the insert object is generic in those places - because it is not any specific actual insert, but rather represents any possible insert.

 

As Matt also mentioned, the one place this preview could actually be more realistic is in the Wall Closure dialog for a specific insert that is actually in a wall in the document.  Since we have an actual wall and an actual insert, we could try to show the situation exactly as it really is in the document.  I have experimented with this, and practically speaking it actually has some unexpected difficulties and works less well than you might expect in a lot of cases.  But one thing we could do is try to set the the insert depth and insert origin preview options to automatically reflect the real insert as well as possible.  In fact, we should already be doing this, I just haven't gotten it to work properly yet.

 

But actually, the ultimate goal of this feature is to create a situation where you almost never have to go into the wall closure settings of an individual insert or dive into any of these settings while modeling.  Rather, you set up your wall styles, you set up your door and window styles, and then you just drag them into different kinds of walls and they all get the right closure settings and insert locations automatically.  We are not finished with this feature yet, and we've got some nice improvements coming up that should make all this even more usable.

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50 minutes ago, Christopher Graye said:

As Matt was alluding to, there is no way to indicate in the component or closure settings of a wall or wall style whether the insert location will be observed, because that is a choice made by each individual insert.  In any given wall some inserts might be using the wall's insert location, some might be using the wall's closure's insert location, some might be overriding the wall's closure configuration with a custom one with its own insert location and using that, and some might be set to other locations individually.  This can seem very complicated at first, but it makes a lot of sense once you figure it out, and you won't need to go digging into all these options every time.

 

Think of this way - a wall insert always directly controls its own insert location, just like it always did.  You set that from the "Insert" field on the Object Info palette, in the familiar place.  Additionally, any place you are defining a wall component structure (the main components or the wall closure settings of a wall or wall style), you can designate an insert location that makes sense and might be useful for that particular structure.  But it is up to each insert whether it wants to use that or make some other choice for itself.  The wall offers logical suggestions, but the insert itself is always in control, just like it always was.  When you are editing a wall style, wall, or wall closure, all you are doing is editing those logical suggestions that the insert might or might not choose to utilize.  That is why the preview of the insert object is generic in those places - because it is not any specific actual insert, but rather represents any possible insert.

 

As Matt also mentioned, the one place this preview could actually be more realistic is in the Wall Closure dialog for a specific insert that is actually in a wall in the document.  Since we have an actual wall and an actual insert, we could try to show the situation exactly as it really is in the document.  I have experimented with this, and practically speaking it actually has some unexpected difficulties and works less well than you might expect in a lot of cases.  But one thing we could do is try to set the the insert depth and insert origin preview options to automatically reflect the real insert as well as possible.  In fact, we should already be doing this, I just haven't gotten it to work properly yet.

 

But actually, the ultimate goal of this feature is to create a situation where you almost never have to go into the wall closure settings of an individual insert or dive into any of these settings while modeling.  Rather, you set up your wall styles, you set up your door and window styles, and then you just drag them into different kinds of walls and they all get the right closure settings and insert locations automatically.  We are not finished with this feature yet, and we've got some nice improvements coming up that should make all this even more usable.

 

This is very helpful @Christopher Graye I appreciate you - and @Matt Panzer - taking the time to explain it all. I understand it now! The Insert Loc column in the 'Edit Wall Style', 'Wall Closure' + 'Wall Closure at Inserts' dialogs is simply telling you what the insert could be doing were you to tell it to, via the 'Insert Location' parameter for the insert object or style. Ok that makes sense! So you can basically have multiple insert location settings set up across the different dialogs then switch between them via the Insert Location setting for the Door, Window, etc. I was coming at it from completely the wrong direction. Thank you.

 

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18 hours ago, Christopher Graye said:

In any given wall some inserts might be using the wall's insert location, some might be using the wall's closure's insert location, some might be overriding the wall's closure configuration with a custom one with its own insert location and using that, and some might be set to other locations individually.  This can seem very complicated at first

and second and third, at least for some of us...  

 

Thank you for the explanation.  Next time I have to deal with this, I'm certain this thread will be very helpful.  It would also be nice if VW could put together a graphical explanation with screen shots that covers all of the ways that Walls, PIOs, and Wall Closures interact and are controlled.  And/or a Coffee Break webinar.

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44 minutes ago, MGuilfoile said:

If this no longer works in the Window in Wall OIP and is permanently grayed out:

 

REMOVE IT FROM THE OIP.

 

Thank you.

 

What are you saying no longer works + is permanently greyed-out? This is probably another case of a parameter being By Style rather than By Instance. This is how Styles work.

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