grant_PD Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 I'm looking into 2023 and I see a lot of new venues on my horizon: theaters, office/studio buildouts, etc. One thing that has always been a pain is doing a site survey and not capturing all the data needed, eventually the design relies on some part of the room/building where information is incomplete. In discussions w/ my clients we have talked about doing 3d scans to create CAD files from. I know there are companies out there that do this, but they seem to have proprietary software/interfaces that make yet another workflow issue. Do other users have experience in getting these types of files? Pros/cons? I'd love to hear... Quote Link to comment
Tom W. Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 @Luis M Ruiz has a good model of a venue derived from a 3D scan/point cloud which I'm sure he could share + explain the process. I have had a couple of sites laser scanned + created models from the point clouds too. 2 Quote Link to comment
EAlexander Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 (edited) I like using Productions on Point for this kind of thing - the final product ends up being an AutoCAD file that can easily slip into VW or they can provide a Vectorworks file. I had another company once give me a scanned arena, but the entire thing was one object and inside a 5GB OBJ file... yuck. It certainly pays to find a good company and talk to them about what your end use is - what I like about Kellen and P.O.P. is that they have event production backgrounds, so understand what we are doing. Anytime I see a new scanner add-on for ipad or device for grabbing points in space, I imagine learning the software, buying equipment, doing the clean up and I then need to go lay down and sleep 🙂. Better to farm it out to the correct people. I don't think that helps much but following this thread with interest. Edited December 13, 2022 by EAlexander 4 Quote Link to comment
Tom W. Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 11 hours ago, EAlexander said: they can provide a Vectorworks file. Do you mean they will create a 3D VW model from the laser scan on your behalf? What is the geometry: what objects does it consist of? Thanks Quote Link to comment
Jeff Prince Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 18 hours ago, grant_PD said: Do other users have experience in getting these types of files? Pros/cons? I'd love to hear... I take it you are the one who will be creating the drawings or models and would like the data collection to be expedited. Scans from a specialist can be produced to the resolution you desire, but converting that to something useful in 3D vectorworks is a lot of work which requires decisions on your part. The files can be big, the workflow cumbersome, and resulting fees high… all of which is fine, depending on your contract and expectations. As @EAlexander suggests, if you plan on being the scanner + modeler, it introduces another layer of investment in time, tools, and technique that may not align with the primary function of your work. So outsourcing to someone who does this regularly has a cost benefit. I think we are still a long ways off from automated scan to model workflows for complex architectural interiors with non rectilinear features. That is the future. In the meantime, toiling with point clouds from a design standpoint is not the most exciting thing to be involved with. I’ve talked with a few people trying to make a go of this in the entertainment sector and it always seems like people are looking for that mythical “scan to venue” button all of the marketing literature from scanning device makers promote. It doesn’t exist. The oil&gas, processes, manufacturing, medical, and historic preservation fields all benefit and can turn a profit from it. The rest of us seem to pursue out of academic interest. I’m not sure if any of that is helpful 🙂 1 Quote Link to comment
grant_PD Posted December 14, 2022 Author Share Posted December 14, 2022 @jeff prince all very helpful. As it turns out I have used @EAlexanders company before, for some external work. Which I thought was great, seeing as how I needed a city block. Inside studios and theaters there is just all sorts of weirdness, like rooms not being square and time consuming things to figure out, like the rake of an audience floor. I too, did find that dealing with the CAD file from the scan weighed down my file a lot, but it might be worth it to have the closest thing to being there. 3 Quote Link to comment
Jeff Prince Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 My work is all outside in the landscape realm, so there are huge advantages to me for capturing natural forms. I imagine interior work could be made easier by filtering points and using targets to define surfaces easier. Those oil & gas folks really have a mess to sort and somehow manage. That may reveal processes helpful to a cluttered interior architecture project. 1 Quote Link to comment
grant_PD Posted December 15, 2022 Author Share Posted December 15, 2022 just played with vectorworks' cloud service "3d model from pictures" and thought the result was pretty cool. But apparently the engine they are using is more geared towards objects or large outdoor things? I couldn't get strong clean lines. Quote Link to comment
Jeff Prince Posted December 15, 2022 Share Posted December 15, 2022 48 minutes ago, grant_PD said: just played with vectorworks' cloud service "3d model from pictures" and thought the result was pretty cool. But apparently the engine they are using is more geared towards objects or large outdoor things? I couldn't get strong clean lines. pix4d, Autodesk Recap, and even Scaniverse will produce significantly better results. Quote Link to comment
Vectorworks, Inc Employee Dave Donley Posted December 15, 2022 Vectorworks, Inc Employee Share Posted December 15, 2022 FYI the kernel used for Photos to 3D Model feature was updated very recently to use macOS Object Capture. We have seen much better success rates, better results, and faster performance from this change. If you had Photos to 3D Model jobs that failed in the past you should see them work better now. Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted December 15, 2022 Share Posted December 15, 2022 On 12/13/2022 at 11:32 AM, EAlexander said: I like using Productions on Point for this kind of thing - the final product ends up being an AutoCAD file that can easily slip into VW or they can provide a Vectorworks file. I can vouch for Kellen and Austin. This is the way. 1 Quote Link to comment
Popular Post Claes Lundstrom Posted December 16, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted December 16, 2022 Here is a compilation of about 25 scans direct imported into VW, and used for documenting a building in combination with the technical drawings (not shown here). The scanner used was an iPhone 13 Pro equipped with the freeware Scaniverse. The resulting file is about 600 Megs. 8 Quote Link to comment
grant_PD Posted December 16, 2022 Author Share Posted December 16, 2022 @Claes Lundstrom how accurate was the overall scan? In my case I'm looking at verifying things like position and size of an electrical outlet on a wall from the model. Quote Link to comment
Claes Lundstrom Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 45 minutes ago, grant_PD said: @Claes Lundstrom how accurate was the overall scan? In my case I'm looking at verifying things like position and size of an electrical outlet on a wall from the model. My guess is about 1%. Heights are a little more accurate. You can't measure something like a kitchen for production design where you cut everything to measure, but it has proven invaluable as it gives a lot of details and where they are located. Great for creating cost estimates. In the example, one of the tasks where to locate plumbing and ventilation, where we did not have any documentation at all. The architectural drawings from 1939 where a bit sketchy and the building had some changes made over its 80 year plus lifetime. I'm actually surprised how useful it has been scanning with the phone, and I suspect every contractor will have something like this in their standard tool set some time very soon. 2 Quote Link to comment
grant_PD Posted December 16, 2022 Author Share Posted December 16, 2022 Very helpful! Thanks. It looks like a great reference tool and certainly worth investigating, if only to provide background for a rendering. Quote Link to comment
Kevin McAllister Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 Has anyone ever managed to integrate a Vectorworks model with a Matterport model? Lots of theatre companies have virtual tours using the Matterport front end. It would be interesting to integrate a set design into one of these venue scans. Kevin 1 Quote Link to comment
Claes Lundstrom Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 19 hours ago, grant_PD said: Very helpful! Thanks. It looks like a great reference tool and certainly worth investigating, if only to provide background for a rendering. It's for sure more than an aid for rendering. In this example, a two or three minute scan in combination with the Clip Cube gives and excellent status report of how well the floor drainage is working, as you can clearly see the angle of the floor towards the drain well. A better scanner, such as the Matterport would probably give a better result, but it's never an absolutely correct result. It should also be pointed out that a conventional laser distance measuring device also comes with a degree of errors. You can try it by scanning the distance between two seemingly flat walls. Just tested my Leica at a distance of about five meters and found a fluctuation of 4-5 mm in a series of ten measurements at the same location. That equals to an error margin of 0.1 %. The main flaw with laser and ladar measuring is that it does not know what is important and not. Having thousands of measuring points on a more or less flat wall or floor is a bit pointless. We as humans can instantly see where the shape actually changes, and we can therefore instantly reduce the number of measuring points to an absolute minimum. I did a lot of boat cover designs a few years back, where we tried all available methods for scanning. On a boat cover, you are not really interested in the panels as such, just where the edges are located, and this is where point cloud measuring is pretty useless. We also tried a Dutch wire based system (very expensive) and found that the internal precision it required to make it work made it drift and becoming unreliable after a while. The best way was actually to use photogrammetry using user defined measuring points. Photogrammetry uses a series of pictures from different angles and where the program compiles the data into a small number of 3D points that you can skin. A conclusion is perhaps that each of these devices have their strengths and weak points. Laser/Ladar works best on flat of gently curved shapes, but having problems with finding precise corners. In a house with flat walls, you can use the wealth of similar points to identify a wall or floor and then let the CAD program find the joints. The trick is to find the right combination of tools for a given task. 2 Quote Link to comment
grant_PD Posted December 17, 2022 Author Share Posted December 17, 2022 So much helpful information in this thread! @Claes Lundstrom I totally agree with your assessment of the pros and cons of these methods. Quote Link to comment
Popular Post Mark Aceto Posted December 18, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted December 18, 2022 (edited) On 12/16/2022 at 9:11 AM, Kevin McAllister said: Has anyone ever managed to integrate a Vectorworks model with a Matterport model? Lots of theatre companies have virtual tours using the Matterport front end. It would be interesting to integrate a set design into one of these venue scans. Kevin It's an absolute nightmare. MP is designed for real estate. I've had countless MP scans from professionals that provide that service, and the scans were more trouble than they were worth. I could get a more useful scan myself with an iPhone and a giant selfie stick (iPhone LiDAR lens is limited to 5m). If you need a venue scanned, reach out to Kellen at POP: https://www.entertainmentsurveying.com Also, they can provide a 3D model in whatever file format you need. In the screenshots below, I had less than an inch of tolerance to fit projectors, speakers, etc between MEP, HVAC, W-beams... Couldn't have done it without them. I requested a topo of the slab, so I could see how / where it fell off because we had a ground stacked LED wall the full span of the space with some zig zag returns, and that stuff has to be perfectly level. I was able to convert what POP provided into a DTM. It was actually pretty level but at least we verified that before we got onsite, and were able to start in the correct high corner. With the Clip Cube, we could also see that the ceiling followed the same (very slight) slope: I affectionally called this Saved View the Clip Cube RCP (ortho top view), so I could isolate all of the beams, MEP, HVAC, and other obstructions in the air: Then start nudging the PJ's around where they would fit. You can see the cones from ProjectionViz: Then checking for clipping (shadows) using Projection Viz and the 3D model provided by POP. This is a WIP screenshot, so the speakers and subs were still clashing with MEP before we moved them into final position: Edited December 19, 2022 by Mark Aceto 8 1 Quote Link to comment
Kevin McAllister Posted December 18, 2022 Share Posted December 18, 2022 14 hours ago, Mark Aceto said: It's an absolute nightmare. MP is designed for real estate. I've had countless MP scans from professionals that provide that service, and the scans were more trouble than they were worth. I could get a more useful scan myself with an iPhone and a giant selfie stick (iPhone LiDAR lens is limited to 5m). Good to know 😮 Kevin 1 Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted December 18, 2022 Share Posted December 18, 2022 (edited) Here are some screenshots of Matterport scans from a project I was working on earlier this year. It's a classic case of Salvador Dali dripping clocks surrealism that you get from MP. "Garbage in, garbage out." Also, for clarification, it's not just the technology. It's the fact that Kellen is an accomplished TD that works in our industry, so he and his team at POP understand what we need in the events and entertainment industry, whether it's for an indoor theater or an outdoor concert. The one nice thing about the MP scan is that I was able to map out the drop ceiling grid: Edited December 20, 2022 by Mark Aceto 4 Quote Link to comment
EAlexander Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Sadly, I think we've all worked with Scaffolding like that 🙂 2 Quote Link to comment
Mark Aceto Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, EAlexander said: Sadly, I think we've all worked with Scaffolding like that 🙂 The issue is that I needed a clear as-built of HVAC and MEP but I got this acid trip (compared to what POP provided in the screenshots above). I also briefed the 2 different individuals that performed the Matterport scans, explaining what was needed, and what my concerns were based on past results but it didn't seem to make a difference in the end result. Edited December 20, 2022 by Mark Aceto 1 Quote Link to comment
Neves+Creative Inc. Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 https://culvergroup.com/ - This group did a scan recently for a project I worked on Quote Link to comment
Ian M. Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 Have tried Polycam, 3dScanner, and Canvas on my iPhone 12 Pro. Canvas has a service that will generate a variety of CAD formats...for a fee. I recall the Revit file being the most useful, but it still took work to make it a Vectorworks project. Polycam has a "Pro" subscription that allows exporting files in a variety of mesh and point cloud files, but you have to do your own work to turn it into CAD. 3dscanner is free and allows exporting a wide variety of file types, so, being cheap, I use it the most, but I definitely have not worked out a good workflow for creating something usable. I would be interested in hearing which of the many file formats the Vectorworks community finds the easiest to work with? Quote Link to comment
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