Glass Accurate - It isn't

[Nick_Reid]

Can anyone tell me why the renderworks 'Glass Accurate' texture gives a less realistic material than the 'Glass Simple' texture. For some reason changes to the specular, diffuse, ambient settings have no effect on the final result. The mirror setting produces no reflections and the refraction setting is so sensitive that 10mm solid glass is more like 2 metres of water. I can get a more accurate texture by using the 'Glass Simple' model although this is by no means accurate. Refraction is still way of the scale though.

I've been trying different settings since VW9 but still can't get it to look remotely like the real thing. Strata Pro 1.75 had a more accurate version 8 years ago!

[mike m oz]

Maybe you should be asking LightWorks this

[G_Hannigan]

NNA sells the final product. If there is a problem with a component, they should address it with a supplier, not the customer. If the sunroof on your car isn't working, you'd go to the car dealer you bought it from, not the component manufacturer.

[CipesDesign]

Hi Nick, have your tried the texture simply called "glass"? Now I admit I'm not doing photorealistic stuff, but it looks pretty believable...if I use Final Renderworks rendering.

[Nick_Reid]

Thanks CipesDesign. I've tried the preset textures but it was when these couldn't produce a realistic effect that I started trying to tweak things. It would be nice to hear from NNA on this subject. The integration of renderworks into the design process through VW11 is superb but many of the details and features now seem a little jaded. I know there are other systems on the market that produce better final results but they are much more complex (read time-consuming and problematic) to use with VW. I'd just like this particular feature to do what it says on the tin.

[mike m oz]

If you go to the LightWorks site, as I did after I had put up my previous post, you can see that LightWorks can do it. It appears to be the Rendering engine for both ForM Z and Archicad as well as many other programs.

What frustrates me is the lighting and texture effects many of these other programs achieve appears to be superior to what RenderWorks can do. I wonder what the reason for this is? Do we get a reduced feature set or is it VectorWorks that is the issue?

[Nick_Reid]

I think we do mike, and I suspect that's because renderworks is something of a budget option. I'd be happy to pay substantially more to have something much better - ie Radiosity and HDRI. I don't know the ArchiCad implimentation but my experience of FormZ is that its best renderings are very slow and times increase exponentially with the number of light sources. C4D is just about the only option but I'd rather have an upgraded version of renderworks. If Avid can incorporate Mental Ray in Softimage foundation for less than ?450 all-in why can't we have it? Its the renderer of choice for all the high-end packages - lightwave, Maya, 3DS, Autodesk Viz and the afoermentioned SoftImage.

For ease of use renderworks gets a firm 10/10. But at the top of my VW wish list would come a radically updated version and much faster handling of large data sets/models. Maybe NNA will fix the Glass Accurate' transparency component in the process.

[mike m oz]

Quality ans speed are the two issuse that are most often commented on. If delivering this requires changing to another rendering engine then so be it.

I still think there is room for a modular approach with the rendering options so that people can choose (and pay) for the rendering options they require. Most people don't want or need the absolute high end rendering option - but many would like a bit more than what OpenGL provides (and OpenGL is not without its problems either)

To my mind these are the possibilities:

Level 0: Basic rendering capability that provides shadows but not textures (as part of the base program)

Level 1: Current RenderWorks normal rendering capability

Level 2: Current RenderWorks and artistic rendering capability

Level 3: Cinema 4D type rendering capability

Level 3 Alternative: Piranesi type rendering capability.

This is my view and I am sure other people would come up with a different range of options. This recognises however that not all people's needs are the same, and to try and have one coat that fits all is a compromise.

Most architectural users do want the ability to cast shadows though, and if programs like SketchUp can provide it then VectorWorks should as well.

A slightly different issue for me is the light sources in VW. I use OpenGl a lot to get the models right before doing the RenderWorks renderings - getting good quality light and shade, and therefore definition, is quite difficult. I look at other programs that use OpenGL and they don't have this problem so why does VectorWorks.

[Jershaun]

I have been "wishing" for the Rendering engine to be upgraded for so long, I can't remember how long ago.

I have now given up asking and bought myself C4D and I don't think I'll ever go back to the mediocre renderings of Renderworks. I am extremely happy with the way the two programs work together. I would urge everyone, if they can scrape up the money, to convert to C4D.

In the past I would render an image in RW for about 1 hour. Now I can render a similar image in the same amount of time BUT with:

1. Better Lighting

2. Better and more accurate Materials

3. Radiosity

4. HDRI

5. Overall a Better Look

And to reiterate for the same amount of time as rw's simple rendering.

C4D is the way. Only 1 thing would be better-if C4D's rendering engine was built into VW-in fact my new wish would be for Nemetschek to abandone Lightworks and use C4D engine.

Shaun

[alanmac]

Shaun

I agree. I'm trying to make the change over from Artlantis to Cinema, which I have versiopn 8.2 of, but I'm struggling with the new interface,the different way it works and client deadlines.

I can get by with Artlantis but getting by is not good enough these days.

You'd think your suggestion would be feasible as Nemetschek parent company own both Vectorworks and Maxon (makers of Cinema)

The other advantage of the Cinema route is the great number of additional factors it brings to your work.

Better organic modelling if needed, modelling beyond Vectorworks excellent capabilities, great plugins etc such as Xfrog for planting, loads of shaders and other source material freely or very cheaply available, and look at Archivision (I think thats the name) RPC people etc.

Add to this a great forum at cgtalk.com with really friendly and helpful people and i think its very appealing. The "core" program which i have is not that much more than buying renderworks or Artlantis. I managed to get the Bodypaint module as well. Sketch and Toon module would also for me be of great interest.

Really need to knuckle down to using it instead of Artlantis.

Alan

[Dave Donley]

Hello Nick and Everyone:

Accurate Glass refraction is improved in 11.5. Previous versions showed more refraction than they should have.

[Nick_Reid]

To paraphrase neil armstrong 'one small step for man.....'

[Nick_Reid]

I meant ' ...... one giant leap for NNA'

I still want the feature set in RW. Preferrably Mental Ray but the current Lightworks set would be an infinite improvement. If vectorworks is to be more of a serious contender rather than an also ran then it has to keep up with the big boys. Which means we need much faster handling of large data sets, up to date imaging tools and network rendering. it feels like Allplan is getting in the way.