Aligning Models Across Consultants (Revit)

[Jack2022]

Hi All,

 

I understand how User Origins work and how to change the User Origin to maintain true coordinates regardless of model position.

 

What I don't understand is how to change the Internal Origin. We work across multiple external consultants who typically use Revit. 

 

While changing the User Origin works nicely for some software (CAD, Navisworks) Revit is of course a special case. 

 

We need to change our Internal Origin to the shared project coordinates so our model imports exactly in the correct position set by the Architect using Revit. 

 

Is there a simple step by step?

 

I want to change my Internal Origin to a new X,Y coordinate. Then I will change the User Origin to maintain true coordinates. 

 

All the videos say more long-winded and complicated info.

 

Thanks

[Hans-Olav]

Hi

You can draw a circle with center in your new internal origin and make the radius big enough to cover the entire drawing, then use Tool/Origin/Center Drawing on Internal Origin

[Jack2022]

Hi Hans, thanks for your input. I might not have explained myself properly - 

 

I will move the model onto the new internal origin manually once I have changed the internal origin position to match the internal origin of the Revit user. 

 

The problem is I can't find how to change the internal origin so it matches the coordinates provided to me by the Architect. 

[Hans-Olav]

Hi

Tool/Origin/Center Drawing on Internal Origin does exactly that 

Do a test in a copy of your file and see if it works the way you want 

[Jeff Prince]

22 minutes ago, Jack2022 said:

I will move the model onto the new internal origin manually once I have changed the internal origin position to match the internal origin of the Revit user. 

 

That's generally a bad idea once a project has been somewhat developed.

Much better to use a shuttle file to deal with alignment after the fact.

As I recall, several of us explained this in one of your other threads on a similar topic.

[Jack2022]

3 hours ago, Hans-Olav said:

Hi

Tool/Origin/Center Drawing on Internal Origin does exactly that 

Do a test in a copy of your file and see if it works the way you want 

 

I think you may be misunderstanding me (or I am misunderstanding you). My model is already at the internal origin even thought the real world position is far away. I have already set the user origin to compensate so the coordinates are correct. 

 

What I need to do is change the coordinates of Internal Origin for the file. 

 

Revit doesn't recognise the User Origin from Vectorworks. Only the Internal Origin. Hence me needing to change the real world position of the Internal Origin

 

I suspect the solution can be found in georeferencing but I cannot find a clear description. 

[Jack2022]

3 hours ago, jeff prince said:

 

That's generally a bad idea once a project has been somewhat developed.

Much better to use a shuttle file to deal with alignment after the fact.

As I recall, several of us explained this in one of your other threads on a similar topic.

I have no option. I am required contractually to align my coordinates with the Architect's Revit coordinates so no movement is required when models are shared between different consultants. 

We have a few projects on the go in VW and the one I'm in is in its infancy so no big deal to move stuff around. 

[Jack2022]

I think I've sorted it.

 

In new file just import their georeferenced drawing with their Revit Internal Origin identified. Select Geo-reference tool click their Internal Origin point so the Internal Origins are aligned. Adjust the User Origin to compensate and maintain real world coords.  

[Tom W.]

1 hour ago, Jack2022 said:

Select Geo-reference tool click their Internal Origin point so the Internal Origins are aligned.

 

@Hans-Olav's big circle method is just a different way of doing the same thing

[leecalisti]

@Jack2022- I'm sorry to bomb your thread, but I'm a long time VW user, but exporting (and importing) from Revit is a skill I need to master in the next few months. I don't have Revit or have ever used it, so I have no idea of what comes out when I export to IFC or to Revit. My engineers tell me they can use what I send (in terms of conversions for walls to walls, windows to windows, doors to doors). I have to rely on DWG (flat CAD) transfers for them to create my MEP engineering drawings.

Is there a way I could pick your brain or consult with you?

[shorter]

22 hours ago, Hans-Olav said:

Hi

You can draw a circle with center in your new internal origin and make the radius big enough to cover the entire drawing, then use Tool/Origin/Center Drawing on Internal Origin

 

No!!!

[shorter]

12 hours ago, leecalisti said:

@Jack2022- I'm sorry to bomb your thread, but I'm a long time VW user, but exporting (and importing) from Revit is a skill I need to master in the next few months. I don't have Revit or have ever used it, so I have no idea of what comes out when I export to IFC or to Revit. My engineers tell me they can use what I send (in terms of conversions for walls to walls, windows to windows, doors to doors). I have to rely on DWG (flat CAD) transfers for them to create my MEP engineering drawings.

Is there a way I could pick your brain or consult with you?

 

This is all very easy IF you have a plan!!!  A BEP or any documentation that defines a strategy BEFORE anyone starts drawing or modelling.

[Hans-Olav]

54 minutes ago, shorter said:

 

No!!!

Could you explain?

 

[leecalisti]

3 hours ago, shorter said:

 

This is all very easy IF you have a plan!!!  A BEP or any documentation that defines a strategy BEFORE anyone starts drawing or modelling.

 

@shorter - I appreciate the suggestion, and that makes sense. However, for a small office and small projects, I'm not sure how to develop a plan with consultants. I can't even speak to how well they use Revit on their end.

 

I see from a recent YouTube video that VW should be IMPORTING Revit files easier. That's all well and good, but I need to know that I can EXPORT easily to consultants. Typically I only need their PDF drawings as a deliverable, but I want to be able to support them and their process beyond 2D CAD backgrounds.

 

Do you have any other suggestions? 

Is there a reason why a simple File > Export > Export IFC Project is inadequate (or the analog > Export Revit (3D Geometry only)?

 

This shouldn't be so difficult. 

 

@Jack2022Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Jeff Prince]

@shorteris right…. Having a plan, regardless of the size of project, is what eliminates problems down the road.  Small projects have small plans, but the small and simple details are the first to throw you off track (origin, orientation, shuttle files).

The simplest way to solve these BIM issues is to collaborate with your external team and stop looking for an easy solution from strangers on the internet 😉  Really, if people took the time and effort they spent here posting on the VWX forum and simply invested it in collaborating with the actual people they are doing projects with, these BIM issues wouldn’t exist.

[Hans-Olav]

The design process isn't always linear. Sometimes a proposal is developed fast during a competition. Sometimes from some sketches with the client and with limited informations about precise location.  There are no team of consultants when you're starting. Your model can still be data rich and valuable.

 

Ideally it should be easy to move your project to the right geo location when the team is hired and the info is available without having to start from scratch. 

Some other applications handle this with a few mouse clicks. It should be easier in VW

 

[Jeff Prince]

36 minutes ago, Hans-Olav said:

The design process isn't always linear. Sometimes a proposal is developed fast during a competition. Sometimes from some sketches with the client and with limited informations about precise location.  There are no team of consultants when you're starting. Your model can still be data rich and valuable.

 

Ideally it should be easy to move your project to the right geo location when the team is hired and the info is available without having to start from scratch. 

Some other applications handle this with a few mouse clicks. It should be easier in VW

 

It’s easy in vectorworks too, people just don’t want to follow the techniques.

[Jack2022]

Well this thread ballooned. 

 

In reponse to @Jeff Prince and @Shorter: there is a BEP, there is a big external design team (mostly using Revit - no VW users) and demanding BIM coordinators, clash detection workshops etc.... However, my question was: how do I change the Internal Origin in VW so I can align it to the shared project coordinates given to me. Simple as that. I have received all the info I need from the other consultants but I am asking how to use that information within VW. The BEP is not software specific (well it's biased to Revit).

 

I can't go and ask an external consultant who doesn't use VW how to use my own software.

 

The online videos often describe something unhelpful or non-specific or simply say you CAN do something but not HOW to do it, so I come to the forum for advice. 

 

Mostly it's a great help! But there is always the risk of contributors straying off onto arguments of principle or wider subjects rather than sticking to the nuts and bolts of how to do something in the software. 

 

There is no point posting saying someone is doing something wrong without a suggestion of the correct way. That's called 'gatekeeping the knowledge'. My question was simple: How do I change the Internal Origin of the file. The answer I lucked upon by playing with the Geolocate tool. 

 

 

[leecalisti]

@Jack2022I offer my apologies for high-jacking your thread. We did stray from your question, but I agree with you 100% - I come to the forum for advice. I can search YouTube and Vectorworks University all day long.

 

I'll try to start a different thread with my question. I hope you find answers to yours.

 

Cheers,

[Jack2022]

20 hours ago, leecalisti said:

@Jack2022- I'm sorry to bomb your thread, but I'm a long time VW user, but exporting (and importing) from Revit is a skill I need to master in the next few months. I don't have Revit or have ever used it, so I have no idea of what comes out when I export to IFC or to Revit. My engineers tell me they can use what I send (in terms of conversions for walls to walls, windows to windows, doors to doors). I have to rely on DWG (flat CAD) transfers for them to create my MEP engineering drawings.

Is there a way I could pick your brain or consult with you?

 

No problem. As you can tell I'm not an experience VW user but I am learning the hard way. The short answer is export 2D DWGs for hassle free coordination across a wide variety of softwares. 

 

When 3D information is requested use IFC. In the IFC export you have lots of control over which layers to include in the export and other controls. 

 

The Revit export is very basic. There is no control. It exports everything on all design layers so the recipient will get any 2d design layer info, keys legends, references, 'dirty' design layer info. 

 

Hope that helps a bit. I've had Revit users complain that it is difficult to snap to IFC models but for the most part they don't need to. I use 2D for the majority coordination and other consultant's 3D models provide context in section viewports.

 

Import Revit in VW is painful if it's a big project. We have to import massive developments with all the architects info in there. Takes an hour or 2 to convert to meshes but once done its smooth enough.  

 

I've not imported IFCs other than for checking my exports.

 

 

[Jack2022]

3 minutes ago, leecalisti said:

@Jack2022I offer my apologies for high-jacking your thread. We did stray from your question, but I agree with you 100% - I come to the forum for advice. I can search YouTube and Vectorworks University all day long.

 

I'll try to start a different thread with my question. I hope you find answers to yours.

 

Cheers,

No problem - my response wasn't to your question. It's good to share knowledge when it is very frustrating to be lost in new software. My contribution might be the blind leading the blind though. 

[leecalisti]

@Jack2022 Thank you for responding. I am an experienced Vectorworks user - but I haven't had to IMPORT Revit files (other than an occasional piece of furniture). My coordination (as a small firm of one) with my MEP engineers is typically one way - me to them. Since 1995 I've only used the 2D DWG conversion giving them flat CAD floor plans. It works, it keeps the project moving, it's effective.

 

Vectorworks doesn't seem to be able to import and export back and forth (as they brag) that I can export a wall and it shows up as a wall in Revit. I can import a wall from Revit, and it shows up as a wall in Vectorworks.

 

That's all I ask.

[leecalisti]

@Jack2022As long as I see the notification, I'm always happy to share what I know - in this case Vectorworks. Otherwise, as an architect, I'm always happy to share too. I don't keep the forum open, so time could go by before I see a response.

 

I wish you the best on finding your solution.

[Jack2022]

It would be great if I'm wrong but I'm almost certain my model exports to Revit as lifeless meshes rather than clever components and families. I think VW gives a warning that it all just gets exported as grouped meshes.

 

Importing Revit as VW native objects seemed to half work. lots of missing parts and janky geometry. Probably works great on simpler files but the Revit files we receive are so massive that I don't have a week to spend on the import. The only practical solution for big files is import as meshes.

 

Unfortunately I don't have Revit so I can't check what my exports look like. I just send the architects the file and enjoy a moment of schadenfreude - revenge for years of cleaning furniture out of architects files received in the past! That or I send an IFC and only mildly upset said Revit user.  

Edited October 19, 2022 by Jack2022

[Jeff Prince]

5 hours ago, Jack2022 said:

The online videos often describe something unhelpful or non-specific or simply say you CAN do something but not HOW to do it, so I come to the forum for advice.

The main problem you will encounter is there are several ways people do the same thing within Revit in regards to project setup, a familiar issue in many programs.  I've had architects who insist on locating the building file in real world location/orientation while others treat their building as is traditionally done in CAD...optimized rectilinear orientation for sheeting and then placing the building in a separate site file where it is positioned/orientated.  You have to get to the bottom of how things are organized thru the life of the project before a compelling Vectorworks strategy emerges.

 

5 hours ago, Jack2022 said:

Unfortunately I don't have Revit so I can't check what my exports look like.

You can download a free trial of Revit here.  Of course you will need a PC or dual boot Mac for the task.

I would advise reviewing the Revit tutorials on the methods for setting up a project and how project locations work prior to downloading Revit.  Plan on a few hours to get your head wrapped around it.

 

Once you have a handle on how Revit handles locating features and the project, you would then be in an informed position to download the trial and load your Architect's building and investigate their practices.  Just make sure you are able to dedicate the necessary time prior to the trial expiring.  Once you observe the behavior and setup of their Revit model in its natural habitat, you can run some test on how best to execute what you need to accomplish in Vectorworks.  Finally, you will be able to test exporting your Vectorworks to Revit and develop recommended practices on future file transfers.  That's really all there is to it, some unglamorous research and testing.  Once you've established this baseline knowledge, it will get easier... if a proper project kickoff is held and people stay true to the methods set out in the beginning.

 

Now, if you are thinking this is too much work and don't want the expense of obtaining a PC/dual boot, you can always hire a specialist to do it for you.  I imagine a Revit expert in your area would make quick work of this task and be at the ready to help with any future issues... good investment IMHO.

I've been fortunate with most of my Revit architects, they are always willing to host me at their office for some collaboration and experimentation to get it right from the start, time well invested for all of us.  Further, they can be encouraged to export building shells w/o interiors and furniture, especially when we extend the same courtesy to them when exporting our files.

 

Did you have a chance to review and use Katarina's advice here?  It seems you have a dozen thread on the forum all based around the same difficulties.  I hope a means for curing your project emerges, it's gotta be frustrating if all these threads are about the same project.