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SILLS IN 2D AND 3D - Unwanted Lines in 2D - No internal Sill Piece in 3D without full jamb Extension - Serious issue V 2023


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HI,

 

Does anybody know how to solve this SILL Problem  in VWX 2023 ? 

 

Trying to move from 2D to 3D and encountering the following problems  with Sills.  Am testing V 2023 and Window Sills within Splayed Wall. 

 

IN 2D 

 

1. Unwanted Lines from external wall across sill EXTERNALLY 

2. Unwanted Lines across Sill INTERNALLY 

3. Cannot Control Internal Sill shape or dims - Length is exactly the same as external sill offsets 

4. Void in 2D between Splayed Wall and Cill. 

 

IN 3D 

 

1.  Unwanted Lines to sill Externally 

2. NO sill INTERNALLY unless Jamb extension used 

3. If Jamb Extension used it extends externally into void 

4. Cannot see anywhere to control the Shape, Dims, extend of Sills independently. - for Inside and Outside or remove unwanted lines. 

 

The only way I can see to do this is for 2D graphic to draw polygons internally and externally for EACH WINDOW , but this won't read using Clip Cube so the manual process needs to be repeated in all sections.

 

Surely this laborious workflow ( if only option) goes against what they're trying to achieve with more interactive, time efficient design workflow ? -

 

Any assistance gratefully accepted . 

 

Frank 

SILL IN 3D.png

SILL PLAN AND 3D 23-9-22.png

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29 minutes ago, Frank Hughes said:

1. Unwanted Lines from external wall across sill EXTERNALLY 

2. Unwanted Lines across Sill INTERNALLY 

 

Is the 'Ceiling-Main' class on? This controls wall lines + is normally invisible by default, only turned on for RCPs

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I was under the impression the sill is being worked on to improve it but I guess not in time for VW2023...? I haven't checked yet.

 

The WinDoor sill works better in that it stops at the back of the window frame rather than extending all the way to the inside face of the wall so it works well with Wall Closures in 3D at least:

 

945488704_Screenshot2022-09-23at13_01_01.thumb.png.b503bebaab9c90959a2dc3a372df73e0.png

 

However in 2D the wall closures still obscure the sill unfortunately.

 

With wall closures:

 

298485713_Screenshot2022-09-23at13_01_54.thumb.png.c452ad84033052e98eada711128e5a1f.png

 

Without:

 

1522511726_Screenshot2022-09-23at13_02_44.thumb.png.707489364e21c40bc196e3be239b18d8.png

 

It feels like it wouldn't take TOO much to sort all this out... I quite like the VW sill + do find myself using it so I hope it does get looked at. Any news @Matt Panzer?

 

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  • Vectorworks, Inc Employee
19 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

I was under the impression the sill is being worked on to improve it but I guess not in time for VW2023...? I haven't checked yet.

 

The WinDoor sill works better in that it stops at the back of the window frame rather than extending all the way to the inside face of the wall so it works well with Wall Closures in 3D at least:

 

945488704_Screenshot2022-09-23at13_01_01.thumb.png.b503bebaab9c90959a2dc3a372df73e0.png

 

However in 2D the wall closures still obscure the sill unfortunately.

 

With wall closures:

 

298485713_Screenshot2022-09-23at13_01_54.thumb.png.c452ad84033052e98eada711128e5a1f.png

 

Without:

 

1522511726_Screenshot2022-09-23at13_02_44.thumb.png.707489364e21c40bc196e3be239b18d8.png

 

It feels like it wouldn't take TOO much to sort all this out... I quite like the VW sill + do find myself using it so I hope it does get looked at. Any news @Matt Panzer?

 

The fitting of the sill to the closure geometry (so it doesn't obscure the closure in Top/Plan) goes deeper than you might think.  However, we are actively working on this and the other sill issue you mentioned.

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1 minute ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

The fitting of the sill to the closure geometry (so it doesn't obscure the closure in Top/Plan) goes deeper than you might think.  However, we are actively working on this and the other sill issue you mentioned.

 

Thanks for the update + for responding so quickly. 

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2 hours ago, Christiaan said:

I'd forget about the sill object and model them separately as hybrid symbols.

 

I've tried many times to make the sill object work and it just won't. It's not fit for purpose and due for a major overhaul. Personally I hope it gets taken out of the window tool and becomes a separate object.

https://forum.vectorworks.net/index.php?/topic/49479-window-sill-improvements/

 

 

 

Same here.

 

Sills in the native VW window tool are a disaster and seem to bear little resemblance to what sills are in real life (a bit like the window tool itself).

 

Every time I try and include a sill, elaborate workarounds are needed to get it anywhere close to what I want, and I nearly always just end up unticking the box and drawing a sill manually. In that case, you need to persuade VW to leave some space under the window and sometimes that in itself becomes a pain, so I end up making the window opening an "uncased opening" and then manually positioning a detached window object in it. And then there are lintels.

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As a 20+ year user of WinDoor I thought I would add some thoughts on the use of WinDoor Sills and try to clear up some of the confusion inherent to them.  We are able to get just about everything we want out of WinDoor but not without developing some tricks along the way that are not self evident.  I have not spent much time with them in VW2022, however, but I don't think they have dramatically changed.

 

First, there are 4 different objects called 'SILL'.   The 'Frame Member-Sill' and the 'Internal Trim Sill' and the 'External Trim Sill'.   Each of these show up in section in about the same elevation.   We always had issues with the External Trim Sill's inability to drop down below the 'Frame Member-Sill' into a traditional sub-sill location.  

A number of years ago we started to use the fourth sill, the 'Wall-Sill' to create our wood sub-sills where we wanted them to show.   The 'Wall-Sill' is designed for brick or limestone sills and we use it for those, too, but with the tweak of a few settings they work great for wood trim sills as well.   

 

This graphic is pre-2022 but I think the only thing missing is the component wrapping features.   I created this to help illustrate to new employees how to get the proper sills in our models using Wall-Sills.   The only real 'trick' for doing this in standard frame walls is that the Wall-Sill only shows up if it the window or door is offset from the face of wall with a negative number.  We just drop -1/8" here to turn the Wall Sills on.  The graphic below shows how the block nature of all these components are intended to align with true unit sections setting us up properly both in elevation and section.  Mostly we are able to use the 2D settings within the WinDoor Settings to get what we want in plan with only a few minor compromises.

 

A trick we do with the trim and aprons is to set the depth to 1/4".  The trim object in the PIO has to sit on the face of the siding and cannot overlap it the way it would be built in the real world.  We get a more realistic relationship between the face of siding and the face of trim.  In section, we can simply overlay a 2D trim profile to finish it out.

 

In the second graphic we just didn't take the time to go the extra distance to model the board and batten as it wasn't necessary for the completion of the CD's but it illustrates a wood frame window and a brick veneer with limestone sill window next to each other.

 

image.thumb.png.9b9c945f161281d0d542f6369834f5e6.pngimage.thumb.png.d3ad44030cb58980ddb019ddd6909b8f.pngimage.thumb.png.d98c07eaccfc800b968df11915a6fd4b.png

WinDoor Tool - Wall Sill not Trim Sills (1).pdf

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The annoying thing is that there are things like sills that are clearly done better in WinDoor yet at the same time there are things that I rely on being able to do with the VW Door + Window tools which I can't do in WinDoor... Either way it's a compromise. 

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Well, these are not the only tricks up our sleeves with WinDoor.   We have certainly run into a number of challenges getting what we want out of it and the solutions are not always evident but we've mostly managed to get there one way or another.

 

For about 10 or 12 years now I take every upgrade and look at the improvements to each tool and I'll admit its been a close call in recent years but I've always come down on the side of WinDoor.   For a long while I feared WinDoor would just up and go away and I'd be forced to switch.   One of those tests is always a triple unit with a single arch with sashes shaped to the arch.   My current understanding is neither tool can make that.  We use the VW tools for Overhead Doors and mix them in at other times as needed but that is a rarity.

 

Here is one example of a challenging situation I use in training new employees.  We have a foundation wall with the need for inset framing ledges on both sides plus a brick ledge.  (BTW-this is made with a single four component wall object) For the purpose of having a clean foundation plan the face brick wall and interior furring walls are always separate from the concrete.  In this case, that meant every opening was a collection of 3 WinDoor objects in order to achieve the end results...one to cut each of the three walls.  This was needed so that they worked everywhere we needed them to work....interior, exterior, section, floor plan, foundation plan, etc.

 

We are almost entirely residential so we may not face all the problems others run into and certainly in VW there is always many ways to to skin the cat.

 

image.thumb.png.1cb5b732df53bdfb28f2016dc27f0642.pngimage.thumb.png.b26fd64c745e237837a01644dcab8c73.png

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One question I asked the forum earlier in the year about WinDoor but didn't get an answer was:

 

Is there a way to show one finish/texture internally + another externally the same way you can with the VW Door/Window tools? In the classes pane you only have options for '3D Frames', '3D Doors' + '3D Sashes' - there is no way to differentiate between internal + external. If I use a Custom Symbol I can probably have different colours on the leaf/sash inside + out but not the frame right?

 

@Joe-SA perhaps you can help?

 

I think one of my other issues with WinDoor was the fact that I couldn't find a way to assign different attributes to the door sill e.g. when you have a timber frame with an aluminum threshold.

 

Plus I frequently put the VW Door threshold in an 'invisible' class + use it as a means of clipping the section of Wall below the door in circumstances where I have it raised higher than the bottom of the wall for whatever reason. Or even just to put a gap under the door leaf if I want that level of detail. But I don't think I could do this with WinDoor although this is from memory so I could be wrong...

 

 

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I've had a busy schedule and often go months without jumping into the forum.   It's only been recent weeks as I'm turning some attention back to upgrades and standards that I'm getting into it.

 

I don't think you are wrong.  For interior and exterior colors you can separate the trim finishes but not the frames, sashes, or doors.  That is one big advantage the VW tools have.   I believe you are correct on your other issues, too. 

 

When Julian was hired by Nemetschek I anticipated new VW Door and Window tools that were the best of both worlds.    I have to assume that is still coming.

 

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Thanks Everyone,

 

Very relieved  to hear I am not alone in this and that help is coming - with an SP hopefully rather than VW 2024.

 

Thanks for all you help in cat skinning solutions  but would be really helpful if it were a viable embedded tool in Windows and Doors which worked well in 3D and 2D.  Will certainly add to feedback on window door improvements as suggested.  

 

Am I right in my understanding that.... 

 

1. Windoor Tool provides better control of Sills , internally and externally in 2D and 3D ?

2. That it is not part of VW and is a plugin available only in Australia and New Zealand ?

3.Is it worth investing in and how much roughly? -and where can I get it? 

 

Frank 

 

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55 minutes ago, Frank Hughes said:

Am I right in my understanding that.... 

 

1. Windoor Tool provides better control of Sills , internally and externally in 2D and 3D ?

2. That it is not part of VW and is a plugin available only in Australia and New Zealand ?

3.Is it worth investing in and how much roughly? -and where can I get it? 

It's your lucky day. Vectorworks purchased OzCad. WinDoor is now a freely downloadable plug-in.

 

Go to Help > Install Partner Products... then click on Windoor on the left, then click on Windoor, then on Install. Relaunch and you'll find a new tool palette called Partner Products. You can leave it in there or you update your Workspace and move them to the Building Shell palette.

 

Edited by Christiaan
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