Can You Hide Slab Lines/Valleys?

[Jack2022]

Hi All, 

 

Slab drainage lines are making my drawing look messy. Is there a way I can hide them? screen shot below.

 

[line-weight]

If it's a section or elevation then maybe by adjusting the crease angle in the rendering settings but if it's top/plan not sure if that'll work.

[Jack2022]

Thanks, 

 

it is top/plan view. 

 

Hopefully its just a click of a button

[Tom W.]

I don't think there's a way to do this unfortunately but @Matt Panzer will be the one who can confirm for sure...

 

You can control the visibility of drain notes, elevations, arrows + slope values but be great to be able to turn off internal dividing lines too if desired.

[Jack2022]

Would be good if possible. fading the layer pen in viewport layer overrides works but then that creates other visibility considerations.

[Tom W.]

In the case of a Slab object you can override the Slab container class attributes in a VP to make the lines less prominent but it affects the outer boundary as well as the internal dividing lines which in most cases I would have thought would be problematic (unless it was bounded on all sides by other sent-forward objects I guess).

 

But you are using a Hardscape I think + I'm not sure how you edit the 2D line attributes in that case: the object seems to have it's own outline + internal (drainage) lines which are present whether you want them or not + you have no control over how they look. All you can do is use the 'Main Area Class' to make the outline thicker if desired (the line is superimposed over the top of the underlying object) or use the container class to turn off the representation completely. The drainage lines seem completely outside of any control. Unless you use Layer overrides like you say.

 

It's quite confusing how the container class + Main Area class work in conjunction with each other + the behaviour is different depending on whether you're using slab drainage or not. If you're using slab drainage, the container class has no impact on attributes, just controls overall visibility. Whereas with just a normal Hardscape, if you turn off the Main Area class the attributes of the container class line are visible underneath...

 

Maybe someone else has more experience with this

 

[Matt Panzer]

6 hours ago, Tom W. said:

I don't think there's a way to do this unfortunately but @Matt Panzer will be the one who can confirm for sure...

 

You can control the visibility of drain notes, elevations, arrows + slope values but be great to be able to turn off internal dividing lines too if desired.

 

Unfortunately, there is no way to control the valley lines separate from the object.  I agree that this would be good to have.

We have an existing enhancement request on this (VE-97572).  I'll add a link to the thread to the report.

[Tom W.]

7 minutes ago, Matt Panzer said:

 

Unfortunately, there is no way to control the valley lines separate from the object.  I agree that this would be good to have.

We have an existing enhancement request on this (VE-97572).  I'll add a link to the thread to the report.

 

Thanks Matt.

 

And would the enhancement cover Hardscapes as well as Slabs?

 

Because at the moment I can do this with a Slab should I want to:

 

But with a Hardscape there doesn't seem to be any way to edit the valley line attributes:

 

All I can do is increase the thickness of the boundary line.

 

[Matt Panzer]

46 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

 

Thanks Matt.

 

And would the enhancement cover Hardscapes as well as Slabs?

 

Because at the moment I can do this with a Slab should I want to:

 

But with a Hardscape there doesn't seem to be any way to edit the valley line attributes:

 

All I can do is increase the thickness of the boundary line.

 

 

Thank you for pointing that out, Tom!

I noted in the VE that the control is need in both the Slab and Hardscape.

[line-weight]

12 hours ago, Jack2022 said:

Thanks, 

 

it is top/plan view.

 

This kind of thing is why I have abandoned top/plan for everything except editing design layers - I use horizontal sections instead for all drawings that will be viewed by anyone other than me.

 

I know this doesn't work for everyone. But with top/plan you are at the mercy of these kind of programming decisions & inconsistencies that affect the symbolic information displayed. With a horizontal section you are simply looking at the geometry, whatever tool has generated the object. Each object is just a 3d object and seen with the same eye as far as the renderer is concerned. So I find it is a better route to visual consistency and control.

 

Yes I realise there are certain advantages of top/plan that outweigh these benefits in various use cases. But it's always worth remembering that you don't necessarily have to be trapped in the top/plan circus if you don't want to be.

Edited September 15, 2022 by line-weight

[Jeff Prince]

17 hours ago, Jack2022 said:

Hi All, 

 

Slab drainage lines are making my drawing look messy. Is there a way I can hide them? screen shot below.

 

 

 

Until Vectorworks provides some finer control over things, the best option is to set the pen of the container class to none and simply draw the outline of the feature using a separate class.  Not very BIMy, but graphically it will do the necessary.

 

If you care about graphics, sometimes you have to embellish a BIM model to make up for shortcomings in the software.

[Tom W.]

2 hours ago, jeff prince said:

set the pen of the container class to none

 

This has no effect for me (with a Hardscape). I can remove the valley lines by making the container class invisible (i.e. make the whole Hardscape invisible) but editing the attributes has no effect whatsoever...

 

 

6 hours ago, line-weight said:

 

This kind of thing is why I have abandoned top/plan for everything except editing design layers - I use horizontal sections instead for all drawings that will be viewed by anyone other than me.

 

I know this doesn't work for everyone. But with top/plan you are at the mercy of these kind of programming decisions & inconsistencies that affect the symbolic information displayed. With a horizontal section you are simply looking at the geometry, whatever tool has generated the object. Each object is just a 3d object and seen with the same eye as far as the renderer is concerned. So I find it is a better route to visual consistency and control.

 

Yes I realise there are certain advantages of top/plan that outweigh these benefits in various use cases. But it's always worth remembering that you don't necessarily have to be trapped in the top/plan circus if you don't want to be.

 

In the case in point you still see the valley lines using a HSVP.

 

In your HSVP workflow are you still using hybrid symbols + choosing to display the 2D components or is everything entirely 3D?

 

[Jeff Prince]

40 minutes ago, Tom W. said:

This has no effect for me (with a Hardscape). I can remove the valley lines by making the container class invisible (i.e. make the whole Hardscape invisible) but editing the attributes has no effect whatsoever...

The functionality depends on how your object is built.  If not the container class, then whatever class you are using to display the graphic attributes of the 2D edge of the hardscape.

[Tom W.]

7 minutes ago, jeff prince said:

The functionality depends on how your object is built.  If not the container class, then whatever class you are using to display the graphic attributes of the 2D edge of the hardscape.

 

This works with a Slab but with a Hardscape the valley lines seem hidden within the object + are outside of any control. Neither the container class or the main area class have any effect on them. I'm not sure there's anywhere else to look. A normal Hardscape + a Hardscape with Slab Drainage applied behave differently in this respect. When you Ungroup a Slab Drainage Hardscape you reveal the Slab contained within it + at that point you can edit the valley line attributes but not whilst it's bound up within the Hardscape it seems. I have to say I have never needed to do any of this so quite why I'm spending so much time looking at it I'm not sure... 😆 I've always been quite happy seeing my valley lines! But I can see why @Jack2022 would want to turn them off in his case

[Jeff Prince]

I thought this was about slabs 🙂

[Tom W.]

I changed the subject to hardscapes 😁

[Jack2022]

Sorry - should have said. These are slabs. The valley lines are effectively the same as the outline so if I change the attributes so the pen is faint or off then I lose the outline too. 

 

Modelling in 3D for BIM then drawing over defeats the object really and adds extra time to workflow. BIM only really works if additional 2D linework is kept to a minimum (annotating viewports for eg). It looks like VW could add a button, much like for slope values and arrows to put the lines on a hidden class. Oh well!

 

I am finding crazy obvious gaps in VW functionality every day. It feels like they could bin off 50% of their functions/ dialog boxes and make massive improvements to the tools (which a lot I really like). By improvements I mean simplifying. Not providing 3/4 different ways to do the same thing. We shouldn't be expected to be professional designers AND software engineers.

 

The problem with BIM software is the apparent infinite functionality at the expense of accessibility and usability for 90% of professional's workflow. How can we expect to skill up a junior workforce (and make sure quality is maintained) with all these endless options at our fingertips. Also I have endless random behaviour glitches in viewports. Usually between two identical objects with same properties. Don't get me started on exporting to DWG. Why is that so complicated yet doesn't get a neat clean and concise export!

 

Classes within classes within classes with attributes and overrides. Too much opportunity for error especially with multiple people working on a project at different confidence levels with the software. 

 

Rant over. Probably just my selfish desire for a perfect piece of software for my personal needs. Putting major pressure on deadlines trying to find reasons for random glitchy behaviour.

 

Landmark seems stuck between pure architecture and civil engineering tools and still missing the classic Landscape Architecture needs. The mid scale. I'd buy a massive pint for anyone that allows tapered components in hardscapes! and a Kerb tool!!! 

 

Thanks all for your input.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Jack2022

[line-weight]

5 hours ago, Tom W. said:

In the case in point you still see the valley lines using a HSVP.

 

In your HSVP workflow are you still using hybrid symbols + choosing to display the 2D components or is everything entirely 3D?

 

 

Entirely 3d (although I should probably experiment more with using hybrid symbols)

 

With an HSVP you ought to be able to hide the valley lines by setting the crease angle to something above zero. Of course the danger of this is that you end up hiding other lines elsewhere that you do actually want to see. But I would say that in most cases, where there is only a very small angle between adjacent faces, you don't want a line there.

 

I don't always get perfect results and sometimes have to tweak it a bit. Typically it's nasty imported mesh objects that cause a problem, and I try and get something reasonable by adjusting the crease angle. Of course, this is probably where I should be trying to use hybrid symbols but there's some extra work in drawing those 2d components if they don't generate automatically.

[Jeff Prince]

4 hours ago, Jack2022 said:

Rant over

It never ends, we all have grievances with the software 😞

 

However, there is no perfect software, especially when users demand simplicity and complexity simultaneously, as you just did.

 

During the transition from hand drawing to CAD, those of us who cared about graphics had a lot of work for ourselves.  There is craftsmanship and artistry in CAD drawings, not everyone has it.  The same can be said for BIM, though the effort required to make things nice is 10x that of CAD between complex 3D hybrid object manipulation and frequent 2D embellishments needed.

 

Embrace the suck.

There is no easy button.

Vectorworks - Design Within Limits

 

We don’t have robust, complete tools which function correctly yet (ex stairs, stacked wall components, fence/railing, roadways, grading, seasons in planting, etc)….

But, they are more complete than competing products on the market, at the moment.

 

Eventually, the LA BIM competitors will leap past Vectorworks and offer something better.  At that point, you’ll have a more significant choice to make compared to the inconvenience of embellishing a BIM model with a quick 2D outline or similar.

 

I recommend making friends with your 2D drawing tools and giving up on the promise of LA BIM creating a singular graphic solution.  Otherwise, buy a giant bottle of antacid to keep next to your workstation.

Edited September 16, 2022 by jeff prince

[Jack2022]

You are of course correct. 

 

I am actually enjoying Vectorworks quite a lot as software goes and it is the best offering for landscape. 

 

Just tapered components for hardscapes (retaining stake modifier capability) and a kerb tool and it'll be complete!

 

 

[Jack2022]

Oh and decent landscape walls