Bob at GDA

VectorGeek, I would have to second your thoughts. This shows how much NNA cares about its users. My thanks to them.

jda, Sorry I don't have any help for you but I just wanted to say that it sounds like an amazing setup. Hope you get the bugs worked out. Good luck.

Christian is right, this is a hard question. You should consider that NNA is going to Update 12.5.2 for Leopard but I would think you could expect to see some of the same problems as 2008 is having with this scenario until it matures. You should also be aware that Apple just released OSX 10.4.11 for Tiger users so that will enter into the mix also. Best of luck with it.

"WHAT - OSX Leopard users using VW 12.5 are NNAs largest user base." No, this thread is about VW 12.5 users running OSX 10.4.11 which is NNA's largest installed user base. It is also about their wish to be able to use Leopard. I see no reason for you to be so upset that NNA is going to help them do that. I am glad you are happy with your purchase of 2008. You should be. I am sure it is a great upgrade. There are a lot of VW users that can not afford to buy every update to VW or can only do it on a schedule dictated by a company's budget. If you have just convinced the boss to buy 12.5.2, it is going to be a little difficult to go back to him or her and request that they buy the latest version. NNA agreeing to fix 12.5.2 to work with Leopard keeps that user base happy until they can upgrade to 2008. A happy user is more likely to buy the upgrade that pissed off user so this was a good move on NNA's part. Peace.

it is not madness, it is actually quite calm right now. NNA is going to issue a fix for 12.5.2 to help its user base. I find that quite admirable. What is your problem with them taking care of their largest installed user base? They are helping these people to make them more profitable and recoup some of their lost time and effort from having to do a total reinstall of their system. Is it your remorse that you rushed to upgrade to 2008 and are now pissed at the money you spent. I can not help you with that. This is a good thing for the community as a whole and it is the community that I care about. I will be buying VW 2008, just not yet. I have been using this software since Minicad version 1.

Apple did not create the problem, Apple created a new operating system which it delivered successive builds to application developers and giving NNA the benefit of the doubt, the last build broke things. My complaints came from my concern for people that got no direct warning from NNA to not install the new system. They notified us via email that they had fixed 2008 but gave no message that 12.5.2 was hosed. This was my biggest complaint. They have said that they are going to release a fix and I am happy with that as you should be. I can spell "Duh" also.

If it is then we get to go back online and start complaining and have this fun all over again. Life is good.

Petri, Glad to know there are Kinky Friedman fans in Finland! I don't think it needs to be free except for the most recent purchasers (which does not include me). A reasonable fee for this should be understood by users. Hopefully NNA could make some money on this. Oops, there goes that pesky pie hole again.

Katie, With that statement I will shut my pie hole. Everyone should give a big thank you to NNA for this. I do.

Petri, Yes they happened to coincide and this fact was not hidden from anyone. NNA has a serious PR failure in this regard. They blew it. I want them to pick themselves up and make things right for these people. I kidded you in an earlier post but I want you to know that your opinions are valued. I may not agree with you tonight, but tomorrow might be a different story. Everyone's opinions contribute to this forum and they all help us sort things out. I still feel that NNA failed its 12.5 user base in its handling of this situation and I want them to act to correct the problem and expand their user base. Not piss off existing users to the point that they switch to AutoCad. That is a big enough battle already.

Katie, You just told this guy that VW 2008 was compatible with VW 2008. Honest mistake but a correction is probably warranted. Thanks in advance.

"Beggars can't be choosers. Few - if any - software companies sell licences of superseded software; even fewer update superseded versions to work with all the latest machines and operating systems." Apple just released Leopard and they are still working on update 10.4.11 for their Tiger users. I believe Apple issued 10 updates to 10.4 and I don't remember any of them breaking VW 12. NNA probably had to update VW to handle some things but I don't remember a melt down like this (I could be wrong). This is part of the reason you are seeing so many people upset by this. They didn't expect it and they were not warned. You can say that it was posted here or there but if Linda Carmody can take the time to send me an email touting NNA's efforts to make 2008 compatible, she could probably take the time to add a line saying that 12.5.2 was not compatible and do not install Leopard if you have serious work you have to get done. Going back to an old system install is not a fun task and is certainly not productive time spent. These people are losing some serious money because of this. NNA, please just give these guys and gals some information they can depend on to make decisions with. Tell them you are not going to update 12.5.2 or tell them you are and give them an estimated timeline and if there will be a cost for it. If so, so be it, but let them know so they can make good decisions for the future of their business. And... Thanks for the great tools.

Gerard, Thanks for the feedback to all of us. I would still suggest you guys and gals that are running 2008 on Leopard start a new thread for this subject to reach the appropriate people. From what I have read I think some of the problems are stemming from machine differences. Some have good experiences and others not but I don't have 2008 to allow me to give any good information. That is why yours is so important. Thank you for it.

pwb2103, I would suggest you start another thread with this subject. This one has been up for quite a while and is really a different topic so the people that need to hear your message may not be reached by putting it here. I was not aware that 2008 had issues and I think it important that you let people know. Thanks for your effort in trying to do so.

Kerry, You are not alone. You might be interested in another thread here which should be found at: http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=89744&page=3#Post89744 Best of luck with it.

Sorry Petri, the opportunity was too good to pass up. ;^)

"If you can't afford to upgrade Vectorworks, how can you afford to upgrade your OS?". When I explained that I upgraded my OS because it was only 10 dollars, due to purchasing my new mac in the last month, he said "Well, gee, isn't a new Mac about $2000.00? If you can afford that, why can't you afford Vectorworks 2008?". Our worst fears have been realized. Petri is working the customer support line at NNA.

Katie, My point was that I felt an email similar to the one sent by Linda Carmody regarding VW 2008 should have been sent regarding issues with 12.5.2. Good luck with sorting it out and thanks for your efforts here. BD

Since I started this thread and it seems to be getting a life of its own, I feel I need to state a couple of things. First, I love the talented people at NNA. They produce one of the finest software packages I have worked with. No, actually, it *is* the finest software package I have ever worked with. Second, I feel they handled this transition badly. A notification to users outside of this forum was warranted. Everybody makes mistakes. Hopefully a reasonable solution will be found. NNA is not expected to provide us with free solutions forever but they are expected to support their user base through transitions like this. Maybe a modestly priced update would be in order since they probably have a good idea of what they have to fix after fixing '08. This still won't appease the most recent purchasers of 12.5.2. Consideration should be given to giving them a free upgrade of 12.5.2. I have no clue about what the cut-off date would be. Somewhere between a customer being mad as hell and just perturbed. Still, with all the trouble this has caused users, you have to admit that VW is one hell of a solution for lots of things you have to get done everyday. BD

Good one islandman! Perfect for today. Hope all is well with your system and life. BD

Christiaan, Sorry for the late reply. I will have to agree with you that the prudent thing would be to wait to upgrade, but from my experience in the Mac community, people are so used to having things go smoothly that they don't think twice about it. I think it was ill advised for NNA to not notify their 12.5.2 user base ahead of time. A lot of users (I would suspect most) don't check these forums everyday or even at all. It will cost these people a lot of time and pain to get back up and running again and they will have to make a lot of apologies to clients. I have not ordered VW2008 for the simple reason that I would like things to settle down. I will order it though. Good evidence of this is that I have been using it for over 20 years. Also, you brought good and valid points to the discussion. I just think this could have been handled better.

Christian, You are missing my point. It doesn't take an hour's worth of time running 12.5.2 on Leopard to know that it has serious problems. It probably doesn't take 5 minutes. Leopard is a major OS launch for Apple and if you think for one minute that the Mac faithful weren't going to install this the minute they got their hands on it you are delusional. Yes Francois freely admits that he's learned his lesson but he also freely admits that he is pissed. He is now a pissed-off NNA customer. As a CAD manager it is your job to be careful about these things. Not so with the common user base. Apple's following is largely due to a relatively effortless user experience and that is what they expect. This problem had to be known by NNA and they should have warned people about it the same way they warned people by email about their efforts on 2008. Many hours of lost time and many hard feelings towards NNA could have been avoided. Sorry, but they were wrong in their failure to address this.

islandmon, Thank you for making the point I failed to, which is, if they were fixing 2008, they had a pretty good idea of the problems with 12. Very cool to find out that there is a geodesic engineer among us! Love Bucky!

Christian, You are missing my point. It doesn't take an hour's worth of time running 12.5.2 on Leopard to know that it has serious problems. It probably doesn't take 5 minutes. Leopard is a major OS launch for Apple and if you think for one minute that the Mac faithful weren't going to install this the minute they got their hands on it you are delusional. Yes Francois freely admits that he's learned his lesson but he also freely admits that he is pissed. He is now a pissed-off NNA customer. As a CAD manager it is your job to be careful about these things. Not so with the common user base. Apple's following is largely due to a relatively effortless user experience and that is what they expect. This problem had to be known by NNA and they should have warned people about it the same way they warned people by email about their efforts on 2008. Many hours of lost time and many hard feelings towards NNA could have been avoided. Sorry, but they were wrong in their failure to address this.

Excuse me, but to ignore the problem is a little foolish in my book.