Ken

No Pete. You were actually God the almighty Creator, proposing to resurrect Trevor from the dead. You referred to him as easy replacement for Eric in a snap of a finger. (A snap of MY finger? But I'm not so Godly!) And then to have both Eric and Trevor occupy the same place at the same time! What an amazing proposition. As we all know, Trevor was murdered by Eric. There's no Erica. Eric is now sleeping with Trevor's wife, raising Trevor's children, doing Trevor's job, driving Trevor's Porsche Boxster, living in Trevor's very own home -- pretty much fooling everybody by acting like he's Trevor. We now know the truth. There's really no living happily ever after -- for Trevor or Trevor's loyal audience. Eric is here. Trevor is not. I can only pray to the true Gods in the heavens above (NNA)... Indeed.

Just a simple little wish list item... How can I make a layer UNSNAPPABLE while working on multiple layers that need to remain snappable? It doesn't need to be fully visible -- perhaps half-visible is okay. I wish for a way to set particular layers unsnappable while being able to snap to all others. Same for classes I suppose.

Is there a way to have both? You mean twins? Or brothers? Or half-brothers? Sharing the same room? Sleeping in the same bed?! I think maybe. I'm glad you're giving them different names. I was probably thinking of Eric as Eric when Pete welcomed back old pal Eric, but he was probably talking about Trevor since he never knew Trevor when he referred to him as Eric, so while I notice only the Eric in my VW12.5, he could not have been Trevor because I KNEW Trevor... unless Eric was disguised as Trevor trying to fool all of Trevor's friends... I quickly slapped myself out of the hallucination though... or he changed his name to Eric and nobody thought twice about who the real Trevor was, giving Eric all the credit that was due Trevor... Seriously though... regardless of names or labels or monikers, I find layer colors more effective for visual distinction of layers if you want to snap to them. Snapping to gray layers is not necessary. Heck, just use a gray color for those layers! Show/SnapOthers has been working fine. Why ruin it. The bigger issue is that the functionality of turning a few layers unsnappable is now lost. I think that's a huge loss.

P Retondo said: This is false. NNA has only changed it so that gray layers (and classes) become snappable. The old code, which leaves grays UNSNAPPABLE, is gone. I need it back. I think it's a fundamental part of Vectorworks. I'm surprised and very disappointed that nobody else (in these forums) find the need to snap to all visible layers EXCEPT those made gray.

It's like agreeing that the old version of the kitchen should be restored, except they just want the new version of the kitchen TO BE KEPT AS WELL. The old version of the command is called Show/SnapOthers where gray layers are unsnappable. (= "my desired verison" according to P.Retondo) The new version of the command is called Show/SnapOthers where gray layers are snappable. I'm just missing that crucial bit of knowledge that you also seem to have, Nicholas, on how we can have both.

Okay, Pete, but the thing that still doesn't make sense to me is this: You talk about "my desired version is absent in 12.5." Well my "desired version" was present in ALL VERSIONS prior to 12.5! -- namely, the functionality of being able to turn a layer gray and NOT have it snappable while working on (snapping to) multiple layers, which happens to be the Show/SnapOthers option in 12.01, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, etc. Not only was it my "desired treatment," but it was, in my opinion, a fundamental capability of Vectorworks. How can any user now have a regular unsnappable gray layer while working on and snapping to multiple layers? I realize that the code for Show/SnapOthers has been changed. That is exactly what I'm saying -- it has only been changed to snap to gray layers, which is EXACTLY what I don't want. You're saying that is INDEED EXACTLY what you want, so you can't offer it back to me both ways. It's either you or me. It's either in or it's out. It's either snappable or unsnappable. If you agree that "the old version should be restored," then it's out -- you're agreeing that gray layers in Show/SnapOthers should be restored to unsnappable, just like what I've been trying to explain this entire discussion. You lose your snapping to gray layers, while I get my gray layer unsnappable, like it has ALWAYS been forever (prior to 12.5). But you don't agree that the old version should be restored, do you? It's either your way or my way. That's how you're fighting me on it. What am I missing?

Yes. It's called Workspace Editor under the Tools menu.

Uhhh.... NO! Are we back to square one? Pete, you seem to have jumped back to the beginning. Have you had a chance to read the other posts in this discussion? At first I thought I too was hallucinating. NNA has not implemented ANY of my desired treatments of gray layers. They've added the new Gray/SnapOthers, which I don't care about. It's new. It's fine. I tried it. I tried finding a use for it. I don't need it. That is NOT what you and I are talking about, remember? All that NNA has done for me in 12.5 is ruin THE OTHER feature that was working just fine forever -- the Show/SnapOthers -- which has nothing to do with gray layers! Gray layers should remain unsnappable! The new Gray/SnapOthers option is okay, but that's not my complaint. Your last sentence quoted above makes no sense. I'm wondering how many different ways I can explain this. As I've mentioned, I've submitted a bug report on this so-called "new" Show/SnapOthers. It shouldn't be new. It should be the same old option that's been working perfectly fine forever. Since it has changed for the worse, all I want is for THE BUG to be removed. Is that too much to ask? I'm just here fighting with people like you who insist that it's not a bug... people who claim that it's exactly what they want -- in addition to the new Gray/SnapOthers. I don't see how or why. If you use layer colors, you should never need to snap to gray layers. Instead, you would eventually find situations where you want to snap to all visible layers EXCEPT gray layers. So having that taken away is very sad. It's a very wrong turn for NNA and VW users. NNA, please return Show/SnapOthers back to the way it was prior to 12.5 -- where gray layers remain UNSNAPPABLE. THANK YOU, NNA!

But Pete, that's my point. You're not using layer colors. Besides sounding like a hypothetical situation, your needs are better met by taking advantage of distinct layer colors instead of using gray layers. You're essentially using the gray state as a visual cue to distinguish them from other layers. In your specific example, you should never have a single layer for electrical devices that snap to more than one floor plan. It doesn't make sense. How would the electrician know and why would he care even if he can line them up perfectly from floor to floor? I assign a separate MEP layer for each floor plan, sometimes separating the M, the E, and the P, depending on complexity. When other layers need to help visually as background, they come in as gray UNSNAPPABLE the way we've always had it. To snap to them, you turn them fully visible. Their distinct layer colors tell what they are. That's been second nature forever in VW. Now it's quite a sacrifice with the new Show/SnapOthers. As for WYSIWYG, are you not using a script to toggle the B&W preference? And the layer colors pref? You can quickly change from colored layers to B&W for plotting by putting the following script into your contextual menu or assigning keyboard shortcuts to them: Procedure ChangePref; CONST PrefNo = 10; {use 11 for layer colors} BEGIN IF GetPref(PrefNo) THEN SetPref(PrefNo,False) ELSE SetPref(PrefNo,True); Layer(GetLName(ActLayer)); END; RUN(ChangePref); With full use of layer colors, pen colors, and B&W for printing, you expand your control such that the only times you would want another layer or two gray is when you just want them as background reference WITHOUT having them interfere by being snappable. My situation comes up all the time because it's my Roof Plan saved view script in a template file. Whenever a project has an upper and lower roof where the lower roof needs to be shown in the upper floor plan, creating the roof plan requires snapping to both roof layers (obviously), but having the floor plans gray is helpful. Things like chimneys, flues and venting stacks need to line up, but they're just one-time cut and paste items. The remaining 99% of roof plan creation and fiddling must continue without further hindrance. Getting every gray layer snappable becomes a nightmare. So now I simply turn them off (invisible), which is like drafting blind. So for me it's either drafting blind or treading through "a school of piranhas."

I think I've stated my case (in only 2,000 words for crying out loud), but in summary here's my very simple suggestion: 1) Keep the new Gray/SnapOthers option. It's fine, I can use it occasionally. I can see how it serves those who want gray snappability. Visibility settings need not be touched to snap to gray layers. I use a keyboard shortcut. 2) For the inadvertently modified Show/SnapOthers, return it back to the way it was (in 12.01, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, MC, etc.). Allow gray layers to remain unsnappable again. Peace and tranquility will return to the brotherhood, and we will have Vectorworks nirvana. Is that too much to ask? I don't understand why anybody would want to use Show/SnapOthers AND have the other layers gray and snappable. It's redundant with the new Gray/SnapOthers, and layer colors don't show up that well when grayed (like walls). In fact, having more than one gray layer snappable seems LESS clever than using layer colors. So it's simple. It's a bug. For those who want to argue that it's NOT a bug, you absolutely would have to explain HOW it helps you. Otherwise it's just fun watching ArchKen climb this funny treadmill. Eventually we all stop laughing.

some snapshot dude in the mirror sez: No kidding, dude. The download file is only 309 MB! And that's just the Mac version!

All I'm saying is that THIS NEW PROBLEM would not even be a problem if the new Gray/SnapOthers kept to itself. Why should gray layers be snappable when options are set to Show/SnapOthers? There's a reason why a layer is set to gray visibility! This would "solve it" (as if it's a preexisting problem). Mike, the reason I disagree with having a "4th Layer Visibility" is that it would fight some of the Layer Options, if only in user perception. For example, if a layer has Gray/Snap "visibility" (which becomes a misnomer because it's not just about visibility), how would the GrayOthers and ShowOthers options control it? What if you just want to globally gray others without snapping to them, just as the command offers? And problems would be compounding with the more "features" and toggles you add to it. I really hope I'm not the only one who uses gray unsnappable layers in combination with standard visible snappable layers.

I don't know what's a "twin pole tent," but another idea which shows smooth fabric-like curves is to subtract a sweep from a solid, then convert to nurb. Ungroup, delete parts as necessary, then adjust individual vertexes later in the OI to fit:

So you realize that ALL gray layers are now snappable regardless of Layer Options? And you're also indirectly saying it's the full desired "improvement" in 12.5? That's the only way that a replacement "Gray/SnapOthersExceptGray" would make sense. I'm not sure anymore if NNA engineers care about straightening this one way or another.

Pete, I always appreciate your comments. While I agree that having all layers gray and snappable is not particularly useful -- especially when there are many layers -- often I want one or two layers gray and UNSNAPPABLE while still being able to snap to plainly visible layers. This has always been available until now. The addition of the new Gray/Snap Others option shouldn't have affected it. Your suggestion might be best. If I'm not mistaken, it could be more accurately called "Show/Snap Others Except Gray!" Yes. NNA, please swap. If snapping to all gray layers is now standard, just change Gray/SnapOthers to "Show/SnapOthers/ExceptGray." When is 12.5.1 getting released? [P.S.: I'm no longer feasting on Gray/Snap Others. I'm puking from it]

Yes, the sluggish refreshing persists, but I can now happily report that the entire slew of other problems in 12.01 (I'm reading my old comments and laughing at myself) have gone away with 12.5. The jagged zigzig edges in OpenGL are still there. I've gotten used to the split-second delays and hiccups in screen redraws. Previously in 11.5.1, SAME MACHINE, no such lags, so can't blame it on the same video card, same video driver. 12.01 is like getting dumped on the head with a ton of farm animal poop. 12.5 is like removing all the poop except the ones from the cows. I am so relieved.

SelectObj((C='Dimension') & (T=Dimension)) does not work for the new "chain dimension" object. Is there another VS for it hidden somewhere?

Here's one idea: Use the Duplicate Along Path tool. You'll have to determine the size and spacing of your dots. For example, create a circle with diameter of 1 inch, lineweight 1mm. Press Option-P to call the tool. Press U to set mode to Draw Polygon, press I and set prefs for fixed distance at 4". Draw your line of dots, double-click to end.

I can understand that sometimes it does seem as easy as suggesting a different color.

SelectObj((C='Dimension') & (T=Dimension)) does not work for this new "chain dimension" object. Any help? Should I cross-post in the VS forum?

Mike, I think I now understand what you're talking about. But I also see how it may be more difficult to implement for NNA engineers -- perhaps even causing greater problems for users compared to what we have now. PeterT above seems to have started describing it. There are two different sets of control over layers. First, instead of Layer Options, I think it should be called "Levels of Manipulation." It's like choosing your weapons in increasing levels of deadliness -- and how you see your target is part of how they can be attacked: The other set of controls, which you're talking about, is purely the visual state of each layer. Nicely columnized in the Navigation palette and Organization window, this set of controls have nothing to do with establishing how (objects in the) layers can be manipulated. It's just their visibility settings: So to suggest having a "4th Layer Visibility" seems like going beyond our existing space-time continuum. Humor intended. There's ON. There's OFF. There's halfway GREY. A 4th visibility option would have to be something like a lighter shade of grey? Or maybe fixing it at layer color? Remember we're only talking about visibility. Any additional manipulation/ control/ handling setting would have to be added to the "Levels of Manipulation," which is what we now see in 12.5 with the new Gray/Snap Others. Needless to say, the versatility and fun part comes from the various combinations of the "visibility" settings and "manipulation" settings. Now, to go back to the problem that I'm reporting... There wouldn't be any "limitation" if Show/Snap Others didn't behave like Gray/Snap Others! Because others have confirmed it, I now know it should NOT behave that way. It never did prior to 12.5. It shouldn't now. It's effectively a removal of one of the weapons. It's just a bug.

Me too. I've only been able to put 12.5 through its "basic" paces -- that of screen navigation, common tools and procedures -- and find that 12.5 is immensely better than any other version of 12. It's such a relief now using it that I can recommend Vectorworks wholeheartedly. Surely some bugs and glitches remain to be worked out (I reserve the right to raise hell about them at a later time), but I'm again speeding through all the turns like old times. Kudos to the entire team at NNA!

Mike, thank you for your comments. However, I must admit that I'm still lost as to what you're talking about. Upon reading you again, I keep thinking about the 4th dimension in our current space-time continuum... how to implement it better rather than blindly follow it as it ebbs and flows throughout the day and week and month. Are you talking about adding a 4th column for the diamonds in the Navigation palette? 1st Layer/Class Visibility = visible 2nd Layer/Class Visibility = invisible 3rd Layer/Class Visibility = grey 4th Layer/Class Visibility = ???

This is just the nature of dimensions being 2D. I suppose dimensioning height in orthorgonal views could be a wish item...

Now that we all know what this is about (recognizing the problem), will it be fixed, Katie? At least placed in line to get reviewed? Or is marek.dk the only other person to see it as "a mistake?"