Chris D

They're far from a pain in the butt in Revit, in fact they form the basis of Navigation in there that's leagues better than VW's. If they are a pain the the derriere in VW it's just because they're badly implemented. The issue is no different to adding classes to your viewports. Classes for objects need to become mandatory in the BIM version of VW, but they also need to move into the background just like Revit's 'categories' are. Everything in Revit is categorised by default, so you don't need to bring your own class system. The only time you become aware of the categories is on export to DWG or IFC, when they are neatly mapped to a class or layer system of your choice. PIOs in VW come pre-classed which is the same as Revit...the trouble is the VW PIOs are crap, and there aren't enough of them, and they are disjointed. We have a ceiling layout tool but the only way to bring in NBL ceilings is as slab styles for instance, which have no relationship to the ceiling grids tool. If you don't like Automatic Views, then just don't use them.

VW does this too! You get your layers, wich are the floor plan and ceiling plan and... No...not the same. A layer is a physical container, not a view. A ceiling plan has certain attributes such as showing the floor plan, but with basic layout classes only, plus the ceiling classes turned on. If I want to go from ground storey floor plan to ground storey ceiling plan, I have to do a layer/class combo change...then to go up to 1st floor ceiling plan...another multiple layer change.

VW currently has Saved Views - entirely manual, and some very basic Preset Views such as Top, Front, Back, Right etc. This is not good enough for efficient BIM working. Compare this to Revit where if you add a storey, you automatically get a floor plan and ceiling plan view for that storey. VW has the structure to achieve this - it has stories which have sub-layers, so it's entirely possible to generate Automatic Views for stories. These Auto Views should self-populate the Views tab of the Navigation Palette, much like they appear in the Project Browser in Revit. Defaults could be set to include floor plan, ceiling plan, finishes plan for each storey. The preset Front, Back, Left, Right elevation views should also now appear in this tab. (I don't know why I'm still posting here on BIM wishes....just habit)

Are you going to add the Stake Object improvements? On a related note to this I realise that what VW needs for metric countries (everybody except the US and Burma) is the ability to use dual units, i.e. metres AND millimetres in the same document. I don't just mean dual dimensions, but units which can be used within PIOs likes the Stake Object, that have their own rounding settings and their own trailing zero settings.

This is why VECTORworks needs to have VECTOR based elevations and sections that can be printed without rendering to bitmaps. Why the heck are you having to render anything other than visuals?

+1

I don't have a problem with Apple hardware - you pay more upfront but the resale value is great so you don't lose out. I just sold my iPhone 4 for more than the upfront cost of my iPhone 5... ;-) And I wish that Revit was available on OS X, which I much prefer to Windows.

http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=169044&Searchpage=1&Main=34211&Words=%22major+contractors%22&Search=true#Post169044 (We're in the process of moving from VW to Revit...)

Actually the 2D mark up in Revit 2013 is pretty good. The 2D linear materials are better than VW and are intelligent, self-categorised (classed) and just work. You can put 2D insulation batts that snap to wall cavities of the 3D wall etc. It's actually better than VW at 2D in many respects.

Where did I put my grumpyface avatar?

Why is the Stake Object in Vectorworks (2012) so bad as a coordinate marker?? It's completely half assed. It annoys the hell out of me that Nemetshek makes me look like an amateur when I issue setting-out coordinates. A site engineer had a go at me again today about our coordinates showing the Northing above the Easting when UK practice is the opposite - I just had to say that the engineers at the American CAD company don't get out of the office much, or ever ask their users how the Real World works. He also asked me to include some AOD values (elevation values) on some of the site coordinates...and what do you know VW can't do that while displaying Eastings and Northings. It can do X,Y,Z but not E,N,Z. Grrrr. I want NV Inc to correct the functionality in 2012. I'm not putting this on the Wish List because we aren't buying any more of this BudgetCad stuff.

That's the beauty of a vector based workflow in Revit. Why would we render anything? We're doing 3D for the single-model workflow but our output will be 2D drawings like it always has been, for now at least. BIM information exchange will happen further down the line. If we wanted pretty models for rendering we'd have stuck with our Cinema 4D workflow. We've never used Renderworks for rendering.

Revit puts a smile on my face for 3D, and as long as I stick with 2D in Vectorworks I can keep smiling too..

Stan, I think you're right about the prospects of a Mac version of Revit. We've converted some of our Mac Pros to Windows...the best ones too (sacrilege). We've initially gone for Revit LT as it appeared on the market just as we decided to switch, so it doesn't have some of the features on Christiaan's 2014 list such as worksharing. We'll be running VW alongside Revit for the next few years so you'll find me on both boards...

In Revit you can snap to lines within hatches in elevation intelligently, i.e. if the hatch is brickwork it lets you snap to the coursing lines, but if the hatch is a speckle like on concrete, you can't snap to the speckles. This works in shaded and unshaded views and even works with shadows turned on.

Selection Filters in Revit are fantastic by the way. Grab a whole chunk of the model, then refine your selection to filter out what you don't want.... really powerful

I suggested having the select similar tool and custom select tools as options on the standard select (picker) tool: http://techboard.vectorworks.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=34223&Number=168830 amongst various other improvements to the custom select tool...

I tested some shaded and unshaded (hidden line) views in Revit just to check there was no rendering going on (other than screen 'rendering'). There is no doubt that these are vector elevations - you can turn line thickness on and off just like in VW, shading on and off instantly, and they all print pin sharp like a CAD drawing, not like a render.

Apparently they dropped Open GL for DirectX 10 in 2010. Guess they should have stuck with OpenGL if they were planning a Mac version.

Elevations in Revit are displayed exactly the same way as the plan or the section views. All views are just live editable views of the model. To me that makes them vector based - they are clean sharp vector style lines, so whether the screen draw is done by OpenGL or any other method is irrelevant. What's important is that you can print them at any scale you like and they are pin sharp, fully finished elevations. You don't have to render them and there is no wait for the screen to redraw while you work.

I haven't tried the clip cube, so I don't know how good an alternative this is, or whether it needs some work...

Don't write me off just yet...I'll be around here for a few more years...the transition to Revit will be a slow one. Having said that, what spare time I have will be better spent learning Revit rather than on here.. If I were to say the biggest things that VW is missing, for the big 2014 wish list, they would be these, in order of priority too: 1. Vector Elevations Absolute priority number one. It is completely unacceptable for Vectorworks not to have vector-based elevations from a BIM model. Having to render to generate elevations is just ridiculous, slow, cumbersome and laughable. I can't believe users aren't shouting about it more than they do. Vector elevations should be hidden line, hatched, with no lines between storeys and no diagonal lines across polygon faces. There should also be an OPEN GL shaded option and a vector shadows option. This should be the default view when you look at the face of your model. 2. 3D hatches See above. They must have sensible real-world scales and have attribute mapping level of control for the origin and orientation. 3. Building Materials You define a material once, with a face hatch, a section hatch, a shade colour, a render texture. "It just works" in 2D, 3D vector, 3D render... 4. Multiple Model Windows The idea of only having a single model view on screen is archaic. Two up, is the absolute minimum for 3D work, so you can see your plan and a 3D view at the same time. Selections in one view need to highlight in the other. 5. 3D Reference Planes It's almost impossible to work accurately in 3D without reference planes. You draw a 'guide' line on plan: it shows up in section or elevation. You put your building grid on plan: that too shows up in section or elevation. You set your storey heights in the org palette: the elevation benchmarks show up in section and elevation. How the heck can you coordinate a building without this??? That's it. Top 5. Without these, Vectorworks is not even BIM. It's wannaBIM. On top of that the priorities are better schedules, especially by default, and far better architectural PIOs such as curtain walls (the window wall tool is an absolute embarrassment).

Just like CSS. Cascading Classes...

We sometimes use ClassName-0 for the top level class

Great tool...takes the AutoCAD tool from 1982 and improves it a little