jan15

I've had the same experience with the version 9 Viewer in Windows. Even though I save the file with grid lines off, the Viewer shows them. And it has no option to turn them off. Changing to a different layer sometimes gets rid of them, depending on what the reference grid spacing is. As a workaround, I try to remember to save any file that's going to be Viewed with the reference grid set to some value too small to be displayed.

No, I haven't had that problem. But I haven't printed any files that large since getting my Win2000 machine. In general, my all-vector-graphics files are much smaller than that, rarely above 500k. Before, on a slower machine with Win98se I often printed VW files containing bitmap graphic images, which were much larger, up to 10mb, and never had any problem. If your files have bitmap graphics, are you checking "Enable special processing for transparent color bitmaps" in the "Print" window? And if any entities have Pattern fills, are you checking "Print patterns at on-screen resolution"? Someone I work with has had that problem printing from Win2000 to an HP500 plotter, with only a few files. Her files tend to be in the 2mb range (I think that's because of a lot of unused symbols). The problem is still unresolved, but I once was able to get one of her problem files to print by finding a bad entity and deleting it. I still don't understand what happened. I think Nemetschek will solve this for you. They usually tell you to send them a problem file and they'll look through it to see what the problem is. When they reopen Monday or Tuesday. Presidents' Day? But you should start out at the Printing/Plotting forum, at http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=22 There might even be someone there who's had the same problem.

Thanks for the compliments. Most of my post was from a Word file I wrote a year or so ago when helping a couple of structural engineers move up to VectorWorks. Dave's question about parametric software made me realize I had misstated my impression of the difference between VW and AC (in the second paragraph), in a way that a lot of users might take exception to, and DefJef's mention of DOS reminded me of what I thought about that difference when I first made the switch, so I edited the post accordingly. I think it's as you suggested, that the difference in look and feel has a lot to do with the difference between DOS and MacWindows. AutoCad cornered the market because DOS cornered the hardware market and AutoCad was the only thing that would let you produce drawings with a DOS machine. And as you said, it's always kept some DOS-like qualities. MiniCad/VectorWorks grew up on the Macintosh, so it always had the visual orientation that AutoCad couldn't have before Windows. And AutoCad's near-monopoly made them sluggish about catching up, though from what I've seen of 2000 it looks like they're finally trying. The problem with sharing files is that AutoDesk doesn't want it. Compatibility is the only reason left to buy AutoCad, so they try to remain exclusive. They set the standards for both DWG and DXF files. There's an organization campaigning for an industry standard format -- see http://www.opendwg.org/ Still, I don't have any problem sharing files as long as I can get the AutoCad people to bind their Xrefs before sending me the file. I've tried to steer a lot of people toward VectorWorks over the years, but most AutoCad users are pretty closed-minded. I think it's because they went through hell to learn AutoCad, and they assume they'd have to do it again to learn something else. I can't answer Dave's new question. I've never tried VW Architect, and don't use 3D much. I do low-end commercial work, and I did hand drafting for many years so I'm used to keeping the 3D model in my head. When I want to show it to someone else, I spend a couple of hours doing a Sketchup 3D model. Of course in high-end residential you'd need more show-and-tell than that. The only thing I can say is that we don't talk about regeneration in VectorWorks, at least in 2D work. The screen is always kept up to date.

I used AutoCad versions 10 through 14 before being hired by a firm that used VectorWorks (then called MiniCad) on Macintoshes. I found it very easy to learn. When interviewed by the VectorWorks firm I wasn't even asked about my CAD experience. I watched an instructional video, then experimented for a few days, and then started drawing. In a few weeks I was more productive with VectorWorks than with AutoCad. I would say that VectorWorks feels more like drawing, whereas AutoCad felt more like programming a computer to get it to print out a drawing. In VectorWorks, you choose a scale, pick up tools, and start drawing, and immediately you see your drawing on the screen just as it will appear on the print-out. The tools are of the point and shoot variety, not the "set f-stop and focal length and put your head under the black cloth" approach. The difficulty in making the switch from AutoCad to VectorWorks is realizing that you don't have to go through all the cumbersome and convoluted processes of AutoCad. If you try to use VectorWorks like AutoCad, you'll be frustrated, but if you can give up old habits and learn a new approach, VectorWorks is very rewarding. With VectorWorks, I stopped working on paper altogether. I do my sketching on the computer. I can work on a plan or a rendered elevation while a client is watching and explaining what he wants. If you buy VectorWorks and find that you don't like it after trying it for a month, you can return it for full refund. For sending out files to be plotted, I can suggest two things. It's easy to save a VectorWorks drawing as any version .dwg file. Better still, give your plotting service the free and easy-to-use VectorWorks Viewer. Then they can view the file on screen and print it to any Windows printer. In either case, the only extra files you'll need to send them are any font files you used that they don't already have installed. Detailed differences: There's nothing like model space and paper space in VectorWorks. You select a scale for each layer. To have drawings in different scales, you just put them on different layers. If you want another view of something at a different scale, just copy and paste it onto a layer with that scale. VectorWorks has real layering, in the normal English sense of the word: arranging things one above another so that the objects above hide and are not hidden by the ones below when they overlap. Objects within a Layer also have layering and can be moved up or down (forward and backward) within that Layer. It also has Classes, which are similar to what AutoCad calls Layers, and Sheets can be easily defined by specifying which Layers and Classes are to be visible on each sheet. With VectorWorks there's never a delay when zooming or panning, at least for 2D drawings. And you don't need to zoom as much because of the excellent object snap system with detailed screen hints and audible click. I find that I can leave all object snap modes on all the time and not have any misunderstanding about what to snap to. VectorWorks has no command line. You don't have to press Enter or Space bar as part of a command, and it takes a while to kick that annoying habit. The primary Enter key is used to place carriage returns in texts. The keypad Enter key is used to terminate a text entity, and to enter coordinates when drawing. The Space bar is used to temporarily switch tools, like the AutoCad transparent command. VectorWorks drawing is performed by Tools and Commands. -- Tools are selected either by clicking an icon on a toolbar or by pressing a letter key (user's choice). There's always a currently active Tool, and most of the Tools have more than one Mode. All mouse motion and clicking on the drawing window is interpreted according to the rules of the active Mode of the active Tool. To stop using one Tool you select another or return to the default tool, which is called Select. -- Commands, on the other hand, are issued either by pull-down menu or by Ctrl-key combination. A Command is a one-time action that is applied to all the objects that are selected at the time the Command is issued. I dislike both pull-down menus and Ctrl-key combinations, so I use a Macro utility to re-assign Commands to Function keys, and I use a keyboard with 24 Function keys. The Select tool not only selects objects but also stretches, moves and copies them very easily by their grips. To get the most out of this, you have to specify "Use 8 selection handles" in VectorWorks Preferences. VectorWorks excels at creating and editing 2D surfaces. For me, the Rectangle is the most basic drawing tool in VectorWorks. I rarely draw Lines. X and Y coordinate entry is very fast, using just the numeric keypad and its Enter key. Rectangles and circles can be added and subtracted (cookie-cutter style) to produce more complex surfaces, which can also be drawn with the Polyline tool and easily edited with the Reshape tool. All surfaces have associated fill, easily selected. The fill can be none, solid color, vector hatch (with or without solid fill background), or bitmap pattern. Any set of objects can be Grouped and treated as a single object from then on until they're ungrouped, and edited while the surrounding objects remain on-screen but unaffected by the editing. Block insertions can't be re-sized, but they can be converted to Groups and then re-sized. There's always a Print Border shown on screen as a grey rectangle, showing the limits of the printable area under the currently selected printer, paper size, and print scaling factor, and that Print Border can be grabbed and dragged to a new location with the Move Page tool. Some AutoCad~VectorWorks approximate synonyms that might be helpful in learning: Block ~ Symbol Osnap ~ Constraint Linetype ~ Dash Style Layer ~ Class (but VectorWorks also has real Layers) Menu ~ Workspace Construction Lines ~ Guides Zoom Extents ~ Fit to Window Zoom All ~ Fit to Objects Pedit command ~ Re-shape tool Distance command ~ Tape Measure tool User Coordinate System ~ Grid and Origin VectorWorks Attributes are: lineweight, color, dash style, and fill; the Object Info palette shows other properties. There's no equivalent to AutoCad Attributes. [ 02-16-2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

I have the same printer and operating system and haven't had the problem. I installed it from the CD that comes with it. But other people report your problem (not just with VectorWorks) when using the version 2.0 driver built into Windows 2000, and they say the solution is to use the version 1.2 driver that you can download from the HP site. For a discussion, see: http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000065 and: http://bizforums.itrc.hp.com/cm/QuestionAnswer/1,,0x86d199f08a51d61190040090279cd0 f9,00.html On a brighter note, the printer will probably break and be unrepairable as soon as the warranty expires and then you won't have to deal with this problem. At least, that was my experience. I was lucky enough to be able to persuade the retailer to give me a new printer, since he was still selling what he acknowledged to be unrepairable, so I guess I'm set for another year. [ 02-15-2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

quote: Originally posted by Bruce Brooks: Jan15, rectangles may be faster for you, but to develop drawing and software standards, we can't all rely on that technique. But we CAN all rely on YOUR technique? Drawing with rectangles, and using the numeric keypad to enter coordinates, are not just faster for me, they're simply faster methods. And they're an important part of the unique excellence of VectorWorks. If you choose to use the slower methods, of drawing one line at a time, and of moving your hand around the typewriter keyboard between Tab, numbers, and comma, you're certainly entitled to do that. But it's not right to alter the program to enhance the slower method at the expense of the faster method. Unless it turns out that most people aren't using the faster method for some reason. You seem to assume that, but why? quote: BTW, the function described mimics AutoCad.This is actually an argument against. AutoCad is a very cumbersome and limited CAD program. Its coordinate entry system is so bad that few people use it, resorting instead to things like the Offset command to set dimensions. I wouldn't have thought I needed to point that out in this forum.

quote: Originally posted by Katerina: (1,2) = (x,y) or (1)=(L) But there's no comma on the numeric keypad! So to enter X and Y coordinates, you would have to move your hand back and forth between the keypad and the comma key, or use the typewriter keyboard exclusively, either of which is a very slow way to enter coordinates, as anyone who suffered through AutoCad for many years can confirm. This method is much more objectionable than the original proposal by the Slow-Draw team, of placing the L and A coordinates ahead of the X and Y coordinates. That proposal at least didn't require searching all over the keyboard every time you enter coordinates. [ 02-14-2003, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

quote: ...you cannot place palettes along the top right under the menus... Yes I can. I can put them anywhere I want, even off the screen. I normally keep 3 palettes on screen but rolled up (just the top bar showing), on the right side of that grey bar just under the coordinate display (the one that says what tool is currently selected), so the drawing window is completely unobstructed. One of my beefs about version 9 was that I couldn't do that, because double-clicking to window-shade them made them dock if they were in that position. But 10 fixed that, by including a check-box called "Enable Palette Docking", in the Session tab of VectorWorks Preferences. [ 02-13-2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

I'm confused by this thread. Is everyone aware that version 10 allows you to disable palette docking altogether? I was as happy as a clam when I saw that. You can put the palettes wherever you want and they stay there, and you can just click on the one you want to move it to the top, or double-click to minimize them window-shade style. Like in version 8. And better - you can pick the number of columns for each tool palette.

quote: Originally posted by Katerina: how about walls guys. Yes, the Wall tool works like the Line tool. Perhaps it would be all right to have L and A first for that also. When I use the Wall tool, I'm ususally clicking on constraint points, not entering length or width. Anyone else care about this? I didn't understand your next posting, about a more complicated coordinate entry system, but I definitely didn't like the sound of this: ...shift key controls ortho, true or false... The great thing about the present system is that it's one-handed. You can enter coordinates on the keypad with the right hand, without looking, while at the same time moving and clicking the mouse with the left. Introducing a Shift key into that process would be like a knife through the heart. [ 02-12-2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

quote: Originally posted by Alexandre B A Villares: ...fool Windows into thinking some modifier key is pressed (shift, control, alt, space bar)... Start>Programs>Accessibility>Accessibility Wizard includes an option to have all the modifier keys be press-and-release rather than press-and-hold, so Ctrl, Alt, and Shift key combinations can all be done with a single finger. If your system doesn't have the Accessibility Wizard installed, you can add it with Start>Settings>Control Panel>Add/Remove Programs>Windows Setup tab and the Windows Setup CD. The Macintosh has this option also. I can't remember what it's called. A Control Panel or Extension, I think. Another easy way to issue commands from the keyboard is to use a Macro utility to assign the commands you use most often to the Function keys. I use one called mgSimplify, $30 after a free trial period. Another one that I know works with VectorWorks is EZ Macros, which I think is only $15 now, and there are dozens of others. On the Mac I used Quickeys. And I use a Focus FK-8200 keyboard, which has 24 function keys (the FK-9200, with trackball, also does). I macro all 24 function keys, plus the Tilde key, the Insert key, and the Backslash key, so I have 27 commands that can each be issued with a single key.

quote: Originally posted by Alistair Kirkwood: anyone out there using VW with their mouse in their left hand. I've been mousing with my left hand ever since I started using a mouse. After a week of practice, I found that I could mouse as well with the left as with the right. But the numeric keypad really seems to need the right hand, and that's why I use the left for the mouse (I'm right-handed). I never take my left hand off the mouse, except for typing texts. My right hand moves back and forth between the numeric keypad (for coordinate entry) and the letter and function keys (for tool selections and commands), at the same time as the mouse is moving around the screen. But if I could only use one hand, I think I would probably use the tool palettes and the command pull-down menus. They clutter the screen and waste time, but that still seems better than constantly moving the hand back and forth between mouse and keyboard. I reassigned many of the tool shortcut keys, but only to make them easier to remember, not to make them easier for the right hand. [ 02-12-2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

quote: Originally posted by Katerina: ...drafting is faster when there is only a length to think of... No! Drafting is faster when you draw with rectangles. Each vector you draw with the Rectangle tool creates four lines. It's four times faster than drawing with lines! And we need the X and Y dimensions for drawing and stretching rectangles. Width and length of rooms, width and height of wall surfaces, etc. The built environment is mostly made up of rectangles. But maybe there should be a special coordinate system that appears only when drawing or stretching lines (as there is when stretching circles, using the Rotate tool, etc.), with L & A first, to accomodate people who like to draw slowly. Would that satisfy everyone? [ 02-12-2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

quote: Originally posted by Katerina: ... instant click copy & move... If you hold down the Ctrl key and click on something, it makes a duplicate of that object. If you hold down the Ctrl key when starting to move something by dragging, the original stays in place and a duplicate of it is moved. Is this what you mean by instant click copy & move? [ 02-12-2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

quote: ...I need to quickly be able to divide a circle quickly...I'm still not getting the concept here. You want the circle to be made up of several arcs? Why not draw an arc and Array it around its center? Wouldn't that be just as quick as the reverse method? If you want it to stay a circle but with snap points at regular intervals, 1/5 for example, you could place a locus point on it and then array the locus 360/5 degrees around the center. quote: ...guides...a quicker way of implementing them...A lot of things would be quicker if there were a keyboard macro utility built into VectorWorks. Wouldn't it be nice if you could draw your construction line, then while it's highlighted just press F9 to make it a guide? Absent that, I use a shareware keyboard macro program called mgSimplify (there are a lot of others for the PC, including EZMacros, and there's Quickeys for the Macintosh) to assign the commands I use most often to Function keys, and a Focus 8200 (or 9200) keyboard with 24 function keys. The Focus also has a built-in calculator that can send its calculated value to the cursor location. [ 02-09-2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

I agree, too. There are times when this would be preferable to cycling through all layers. Maybe a fifth line could be added to the "Arrow Keys" box in "VectorWorks Preferences" for "Switch Visible Layer", and Alt-arrow could be one of the hotkeys.

quote: ...something similar to AutoCAD's construction lines... ...only better, not limited to lines. That's Guides, in the Edit pull-down menu. Select any object, then Make Guide. You can snap to guides the same as to any other object, and can hide or delete them all at once. quote: ...easily divide polylines for instance, or circles... I used to use the Divide command in AutoCad a lot, not because I wanted the line to be in separate pieces, but because I wanted to know where one third or one fifth of something would fall, and AutoCad didn't have any good ways to do that. But VectorWorks does. For example, if I wanted 17 risers to fit a 9'-7" floor-to-floor height, I'd draw one riser beginning at the lower floor, Group it and then Edit Group, Array it into 17 risers (or Mirror it if I only want 3 or 4 iterations), then Exit Group and stretch the group to the upper floor. Much faster.

quote: Originally posted by Mbuck: I could never fathom why X and Y are in the first and second tab positions. Who draws a line using their X and Y coordinates? Who draws lines at all? VectorWorks excels at the 2D Surface, made up of rectangles and sometimes circles, added and/or clipped to form a more complex shape, which is then easily re-shaped, including edges hidden as required, and then solid filled or hatched, with a line weight, type, and color specified once for all its visible edges. In drawing the original rectangle, we enter its length and width very quickly and easily with the numeric keypad -- Enter once, then X, Enter again, then Y, and Enter again and release the mouse button. And when stretching a rectangle: Hit the keypad Enter key once to stretch horizontally, twice to stretch vertically. quote: Originally posted by Mbuck: ...change this tool bar so L and A are the first and second tab positions...this would enable most people to draw faster... Who are these "most" people that are drawing more things at odd angles than orthogonally? I use the X and Y coordinate entry boxes almost constantly, but I can't remember ever using the L and A boxes. Do you know about setting constrain angle? and setting grid angle to work on something that isn't all X and Y orthogonal? These methods are easier and faster than entering an A coordinate anyway. And if you're drawing individual lines and entering their length, you're not taking advantage of the speed the program offers.

quote: Originally posted by Kevin Ford: ...a way of moving through the data display bar so I won't have to take my hand off the numeric keypad... The Enter key on the numeric keypad does this, at least in Windows. Is it different in Macintosh? I can't remember. Only the keypad Enter key, not the main Enter key. Press it once to highlight the X coordinate box, then press it again to go on to Y, and so on, with or without having typed a value. It's one of the best features of the program, and a very fast and easy way to enter coordinates. Of course, you have to take your hand off the keypad for any dimension in feet and inches that you can't mentally convert to inches, but that's true in any program. Can anyone think of a solution to that?

quote: Originally posted by P Retondo: Could we have an interactive window that shows all the sheets at once, with all the layer and class options for each sheet? .... a more intuitive way .... more the "MiniCAD Way" I agree completely. The layer editor isn't quite as much of an exquisite little jewel as most parts of the VectorWorks interface are. I've often wondered if there could be a better way to edit sheets, but wouldn't want to trade what's there now for an AutoCad-like time waster. Certainly the quick pull-up window for selecting which sheet to display should be kept.

When I read this wish item, I was going to add my support for it. It sounded like a very good idea for the Object Info palette to show how many objects are selected, as a quick way of counting iterations of a symbol. But then I checked and found that version 10 already includes this! There are two "Multiple Selection Modes", which you select by clicking on the three tiny circles, and -- in version 10 only -- one of those modes includes a count of the objects selected. The other mode gives info on one of the objects at a time, and can cycle through the objects from top to bottom. Exquisite! Thank you for calling this to my attention. [ 02-05-2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

quote: Originally posted by Dave M: Why does it matter what I use them for. It doesn't matter, as long as you do it in the privacy of your own home. All kidding aside, of course you can use the program any way you like, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I myself sometimes use it to draw caricatures of people. But this is a public forum, about making changes to a program we all use. You suggested a change that would be detrimental to the management of a normal number of layers, in order to facilitate the management of a very large number of layers. So the reason for you or anyone else to use 100+ layers is something that should be discussed. If there's a good reason for it, that would suggest that a lot of other people may be doing it also, or should be doing it. Maybe I should be doing it. But you didn't give a reason -- and still haven't -- and the only reason I can think of is that you're doing something with layers that can already be done with classes in exactly the way you suggested. The present VectorWorks layer selection process is excellent for those of us who use layers as a layering tool. Ctrl-arrow keys cycle through the list, for a very fast, easy change to a nearby layer, which is the change made most often. A single-click pulls down a list of all the layers, with their status. Then a single mouse movement and another click changes to any other layer in the list. The sub-class-by-hyphenation process, which you want to extend to layers, makes all three of those actions more cumbersome. Ctrl-arrow cycling doesn't include sub-classes. The single-click pull-down display of class names doesn't show sub-classes. Selecting a sub-class requires the initial pull-down click, then two mouse movements in different directions, with a pause or another click in between, and then the final click. Hyphens in layer names are a good, easy-to-type, and highly readable way of making distinctions between related layers. For example, in a file containing two or more sheets of building elevation renderings, the layers might be named: Sht1-Text Sht1-Windows Sht1-Walls Sht1-Backgrd. ------------- Sht2-Text Sht2-Windows ... and so on. Under the system you propose, using a hyphen in the layer name would force the use of sub-layers, presumably in the same cumbersome way as sub-classes. By the way, I have no complaint about the first part of your suggestion, of returning to the version 8 style of the pull-down layers list. I didn't know it was multi-column, since I never had that many layers, but I liked the tighter line-spacing of layer names. If that could accomplish what you want, or if there were some optional system of sub-layering that didn't prevent using hyphens in layer names, I wouldn't object. [ 02-05-2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: jan15 ]

A PDF writer for VectorWorks would be useful for sharing drawings with others. Some professionals are too lazy to download and install the VectorWorks Viewer, and many clients are unable to do so. It would be nice to be able to email them a file they can look at on screen. And I just read - at http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:akM9X6ESbWIC:www.genericcadd.com/cad2pdf2.pdf+pdf+writer+2000&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 - that some people are sending PDF files to blueprinters for plotting. Maybe this would reduce the problems that we find in printing the same file from a different machine?

quote: Originally posted by ga: we can have more than one scale on any particular sheet, eg. 1:50 and 1:5 drawings within one titleblock. however this cannot be exported to Autocad because the translation cannot cope with this Change all the layers to 1:1 (and when you do that, make sure the "Scale Text" box is checked). Then export that. That will give AutoCad what it likes -- a drawing that's all full size, which it calls a "model". Your consultants, plagued as they are with model space, paper space, and viewports on a daily basis, can very easily create the necessary viewports and zoom and pan around in them till they show the various drawings each at its proper scale and location on the sheet, which is the only way AutoCad can do that. quote: Originally posted by ga: to allow easy printing? Give them the free and extremely easy-to-use VectorWorks Viewer. Then always send them an MCD file along with the above-described full-size DWG file. They can use the DWG file to draw, and use the MCD file to easily print the drawing sheet(s) contained in the file, or to view them on screen with proper color and line weight. Be sure to include any non-standard fonts you used, or else the Viewer will substitute another font and text entities may not fit in the space you alloted to them.

quote: Originally posted by k_shehadeh: ...the Object Properties dialog... Actually, I was talking about the "Object Info" Palette. I leave it on-screen but minimized all the time, and double-click on it when I want to see properties. But that turns off the keyboard tool selection shortcuts until the drawing window is activated again. HOWEVER I see now that I was wrong. I never used version 9, except for printing, exports, and saving files that other people could read in the VW Viewer, and my memory of how it worked was fuzzy. Version 9 is the same as 10 in this regard. The improvement that I remembered of version 9 over 8 is in returning to the drawing window from the "Attributes" palette, and that improvement is maintained in version 10. I guess the keyboard shortcuts have to be turned off so the Object Info palette can use the keyboard to change properties. So... Never mind. I can right-click to get object properties (I forgot about that option till you mentioned it), instead of using the Object Info palette. I'm grateful that palette docking can now be overridden, and that arrow key functions can be specified in Preferences. Version 10's user interface is in no way worse than version 9's, and in some ways better. If it had version 8's Extend tool (extend by single-click rather than by dragging), and version 8's easier style of Pan-by-dragging, it would be the best ever. If it had a slower or selectable rate of Pan-by-arrow-keys or Zoom-by-double-keystroke, and maybe a built-in keyboard macro facility, it would be perfect. [ 01-27-2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: jan15 ]