jan15

Bruce, why do you have to use Layers for those things rather than Classes?

I think they do read the forum closely, and respond when appropriate. When someone reported an Offset tool bug here on the forum instead of sending it to BugSubmit, and several other people expressed shock and horror, NNA got on it quickly and fixed it. But that was just a technical glitch that slipped by until one user spotted it. You're talking about software design issues that they've been aware of for a long time. Imagine how many people over the years have called Tech Support and asked, "How come this other thing moves when I try to move this thing?", or "How can I move this thing by clicking on these two points over here?" They don't need the forum to tell them how users feel about those issues. If they could improve them without damaging something else and without taking time away from more urgent design work, I'm sure they would. And I think it's appropriate, when someone complains about lack of a certain feature, to suggest a way they can do what they want using a feature that's already available, or to point out, as DWorks did, that such solutions exist. No program can do everything. VW can do a lot of good things that no other CAD application can.

Petri, you old curmudgeon, welcome back! Jhaceun, your opinion does matter, and your assessment is correct. If you don't need layers to control 2D visibility or represent different plan levels, and if you don't do workgroup referencing, then the only thing left is scale. If you didn't need scale either, a single design layer would suffice.

In 2D work a Layer is a division of cyber-space, like the layers of tracing paper that you might use to sketch over a drawing and to draw something else on top of that. A Class is a non-spatial relationship between objects, like being in the same family or clan, or belonging to the same club, trade union, or social class. So you could have a Carpenter on the first floor, and another Carpenter on the third floor, and you could select all the Carpenters, wherever they are. That would be a "Custom Selection" using Class as a criterion. Or you could do something that affects all the people on the third floor (which in this analogy represents a Layer) -- Carpenters and Smiths and Millers alike -- without affecting anyone on the first floor. But while doing it, you'd be able to see everyone on the first floor, if you have Layer Options set to "Show Others". The Group is important in VectorWorks. It's not similar to what Autocad calls a Group. A VW Group can be thought of as a sub-division of a Layer, or more precisely a container that's located on a particular Layer. A Group can contain objects of many different Classes, but when you put something into a Group, it's not individually associated with a Layer anymore. It's contained in the Group, and so is on whatever Layer the Group is on. If you Ungroup, the ungrouped objects stay on the Layer that the Group was on, and they each keep their own Class status just as they did when you first put them into the Group. Another way this spatial vs. non-spatial relationship works is that when you Paste an object, you're always pasting it onto the Active Layer. But it keeps the Class it had when you Cut it or Copied it to the clipboard. "Paste-in-Place" can be useful for moving a lot of objects from one Layer to another, or from one file to another, or for moving objects into or out of a Group. The old adage says, "You can take the boy out of the country (take him out of his Group or off of his Layer), but you can't take the country (his Class) out of the boy." In VectorWorks, you can take the country out of the boy. You can use the Object Info palette to change an object's Class as well as its Layer. VW Classes are similar to Autocad "Layers" (which aren't layered). VW Sheet Layers are analogous to Autocad's Layout Tabs. VW Design Layers are somewhat analogous to Autocad Modelspace, except that there can only be one Modelspace in a file and it can't be drawn to scale. A single drawing in VW can be divided between several Design Layers as long as they have the same scale. The same file can contain drawings at other scales, each drawn on one or more layers with a different scale than the layers the first drawing is on. Layers can be used in connection with the associated fill (hatch, solid color, and others) that any 2D object in VectorWorks can have. Hatches can have an optional solid background fill. You can use Layers to control which of two overlapping opaque-filled 2D objects is visible. For example, windows vs. siding on an elevation drawing of a building. If you make the window opaque and put it on a higher layer, it covers up the siding wherever it's located. You can also control layering and therefore visibility within a single layer, by controlling the stack order (as in Autocad). Any new object is created at the top of the stack for its layer. That includes a new Group made from existing objects, and a new 2D object made by combining two or more objects with the "Add Surface" command. There are several commands that move the current selection set up or down in the stack order.

What a stupid question!!! (just kidding -- you said you missed Petri, so I was trying to fill in for him) I doubt if I can help, but since noone else has answered, at least I can give you a reply: Are you saying that VW responds to the unshifted M key in a different way than other programs do? If other applications do the same thing, then it's a system problem. If only VW does it then it's a VW problem. Either way it sounds very strange. If it's the system, there might be software you can buy that intercepts and changes the conversion of keyboard scan codes to character codes. Maybe your machine already has something like that built in by the manufacturer. Maybe it makes the small-mu substitution so that you can type a "micro" symbol even with fonts that don't have a Greek code page. If it's VW, I think only they can fix it. The company that sold you VW should take care of it. You say a lot of fonts don't have a 00B5 character. What fonts are they? I just ran quickly through the first 50 or so of my system fonts, and almost all of them have a lower-case mu at 00B5 -- even the ones that don't have a Greek code page. The only one I could find that has a lower-case mu at 03BC but not at 00B5 is Galilee Unicode Gk. On my own Windows 2000 system, I can't duplicate the problem you described. When I type unshifted M in Greek I always get a proper lower-case mu, even in Galilee Unicode Gk. That's true in VW as well as other applications (I've got VW v10, so it only shows the Greek characters as I'm typing them).

Yes, as I said above, the idea that, when you click down to select, any screen-hinted edges/handles of already-selected objects should take precedence over edges/handles/fills of unselected objects (even overlying unselected objects) -- that idea might work without messing anything else up, and if so I'm all for it. I don't even see why it would need to be a separate mode. Maybe the 2D Select tool should just work that way all the time. But as for the idea of a modifier key to temporarily suppress selection: I think making it a toggle switch would be a bad idea. It should be a momentary switch, the same way the Shift and Ctrl keys now modify the 2D Select tool. No selection would take place while it's held down. So you'd only need to hold it down at the moment you start a drag-move. I know how frustrating it can be trying to maintain stack order, not only because of selecting and moving as you mentioned, but because things go to the front when you Group them or Add Surface. There are often unpleasant surprises on the print-out. Do you ever use Layers to control visibility? Put everything that needs to be in front or behind something else on a separate layer, and just stack the layers to get the visibility you want?

Wouldn't that be more cumbersome than the current work-around? (By that I mean first dragging the selected object a little bit away from the overlying object and then grabbing it by an edge or handle.)

If you double-click on the drawing file you want to edit, VectorWorks will boot up with that file open and no new file.

This might work. hmmm... first look for a selected object that has an edge at the click-down point, and if that fails, check for any object there, whether selected or not, and either edge or hatch area. Yes, that might take care of the 2D problem, if it can be done, i.e. if it doesn't conflict too much with the way the database is searched. I should have thought of that before, instead of arguing about whether 2D objects can be selected by clicking on their fill area. Of course, it still does nothing about moving by remote displacement points. But you say 3D work has no use for that. That surprises me. In Sketchup3D, I use that a lot. A thing is this far from a column, and I want to move it or copy it to the same position relative to another column. But VW 3D isn't like that at all?

I'm not in agreement with your list. I'm just resigned to the fact that 2D is being phased out and they're not going to do anything to improve it, and that if something helps 3D work, even at the expense of 2D, they're more likely to do that. As I said 'way up above, I assume they've already scheduled something like what David proposed. I'm sure they considered all this stuff a long time ago and have their various opinions on it and their corporate policy. The only way this forum thread could influence that is if it showed most users favor a certain change. But, on the contrary, it shows that only a few zealots have any interest, and our opinions are divided. Not that it isn't fun to talk about it. We think about these things as we use the software every day, and it's nice to have a forum where we can talk about an ideal VW world.

How will the computer know you're "not attempting to drag" the object? Selection occurs as soon as you click down, before you either start a drag or release the mouse button.

Actually, the problem with selected objects that underlie a filled 2D surface object isn't only when dragging the surface object. It would also be a problem when you're just trying to select it. Selection happens as soon as you click down, before VW knows whether you're planning to drag. (EDIT: emphasis added) In 2D work we commonly click on a fill area to select the object, because it's easier. It's a larger target, for one thing. And if we clicked on an edge we might get an overlying object instead! So, with David's proposed change to the 2D Reshape tool, sometimes we'd click on a surface and nothing would happen. And then we'd think, "What's wrong?" And then, "Oh, right, because that other thing behind it was already selected. I have to click somewhere else, or deselect everything first." As I said before, it wouldn't be the end of the world, and it wouldn't be any worse than the present situation. And if it's just another mode of the 2D Select tool, we could ignore it. But then people who don't want to work that way would still have the old problem of inadvertently selecting overlying objects. Or would have to keep changing modes, like with that infernal 2D Reshape tool.

Since the top (unselected) one is solid-filled, you might not even know the bottom one is there (depending on how big the two objects are and how far you're zoomed in). You could end up moving something you don't see, and wondering why the thing you do see isn't moving.

That was David's suggestion, too. His first suggestion, that is. And of course it's a great idea, but how do you make it work without messing up something else? You wouldn't want the Select tool to refuse to select anything new when something else is already selected, would you? People would notice that real fast. Having to deselect all, by clicking on a blank spot, before you could grab a new object and drag it -- that would be a nuisance. So I suggested, in response to David, that it could only work if the Select tool first checks to see whether there's any selected object at the click-down point, and, if there is, assume that's the object you meant. And if there isn't any selected object there, then it could check to see if there's an unselected object at that point. Is that what you were thinking of? Again, it seems like a good idea, and they should have done it that way in the beginning. But, as I pointed out before, there would be a problem if there happened to be a selected object at the click-down point but hidden behind a solid-filled 2D surface that you want to move. You'd click on that solid-filled surface to try to grab it and move it, but you'd end up moving the hidden object instead. You'd be just as surprised as you are now about accidentally selecting an overlying object. The problem is that the program can't read your mind and do whatever you're thinking. What you're thinking in this case is "stop doing that selection thing, and just do your drag-move trick with the objects already selected". So I suggested that pressing down the Alt key should temporarily turn off all selection activities (just as the Shift key now turns off some of them). That would allow you to move the selected object(s) without making any unintended changes to the selection set. And, as it happens, it would also allow you to drag-move an object without starting the drag at some point on the object. If an object is a certain distance and angle away from point A, and now you want it, or a copy of it, to be the same distance and angle away from point B, it would be nice to be able to drag-move it by clicking at A and then B. But you can't do that because A isn't on the object, and so clicking at point A would deselect the object. But if you could turn off all selection activity by holding down the Alt key, as I suggested, then it would be possible.

Not to worry. I doubt anyone else is reading this thread, given the large number of very long comments.

You could try purging unused symbols. Some Autocad users store all the symbols they have in every drawing file, for convenience.

Of course! Because you have to use a different tool for moving! And then change back to the Select tool to pick the next object. And then back to the move tool again. And back and forth. You usually have to move a lot of things at once. Design never affects just one thing. And with all that back and forth, you miss VW's unique grab'n'go system of moving things with the Select tool. Even Sketchup doesn't have that. So I'm saying: what if the normal VW grab'n'go drag-move had an option where the first click point doesn't have to be on the selected object? Wouldn't that be nice? You wouldn't need it a lot, but there are times when it would be very convenient. The alternate selection mode that you get when you hold down the Shift key is the same way. You don't need that very often, either, but it's nice to know it's there. And the reason the first click point wouldn't have to be on the selected object is because selection is suppressed for as long as you hold down a certain key, let's say the Alt key. And if selection is suppressed, it's not going to look for the first object in the stack order at that point, so holding down that key also solves the original problem that prompted this thread and many others.

"may not work" for 2D is putting it mildly. We really count on 2D filled surface objects staying where they are in the stack order. Having things come to the front any time you click on them would be a disaster -- much worse than occasionally selecting an overlying object by mistake. But if they're phasing out 2D drawing I guess it doesn't matter. I don't understand why stack order is even a concept in 3D. In Sketchup3D you see the thing that's closest to you, as in the real 3D world. You don't see the thing that was drawn most recently. When you click on a point, you select the closest thing at that point, not something farther away that was drawn later or moved up in the stack. And what about being able to move objects by remote vector without changing out of the 2D Select tool? You didn't like that part?

VW doesn't come with fonts. It uses the system fonts that are available to all applications. Whenever VW starts up, it loads all the fonts that are in the system's Fonts folder at that time. If you add a font, you have to re-start VW. So look through your system Fonts folder and see what looks like an architect's font to you. In Windows, you can quickly cycle through all the fonts with "Character Map", and then double-click on any file in the Fonts folder to see a larger view of that font only. If you want something that looks like architects' traditional hand-lettering, you might not have one already. But you can search the internet for a suitable free font (I think there's one called "Architect", and another called "Blueprint") or buy Mr. Hand for $45.

The only thing I can think of is that an Autocad dimension style can automatically draw a box around the dimension text (Format > Dimension Style > Modify > Text tab). But if that's it you should see the box on screen, too, not just in the print-out. Is there a box around the text of dimensions created in Autocad? (Try it in the VW-exported file and in a new AC file.)

A good point. In previous versions, you only had to hold down the modifier key while beginning to drag an object with the 2D Select tool (in order to make the operation a copy rather than a move). I never understood why they changed that. As you said, the new way makes it hard to enter the coordinates of the move vector. But you can first issue the "Duplicate" command, and then drag-move the duplicate. To keep the duplicate in the same place as the original, you would have to turn off "Offset Duplications", in "VectorWorks Preferences".

I didn't suggest that. I only said it worked that way up to version 10, and only because Jeff surprised me by saying it doesn't work that way any more. I have no opinion on whether they should be selectable. I've never done a 3D project in VectorWorks. To return to the discussion we were having before all that confusion: I brought up the subject of selecting 2D objects by filled area because it would complicate your idea of always dragging the existing selection set rather than interpreting the click as a selection of an overlying object. Selecting 2D surfaces by their fill is definitely useful. But 2D is being phased out, and the fact that VW no longer selects by visible surface in 3D suggests that they're already moving toward your idea. Losing the ability to select 2D surfaces wouldn't be the end of the world, and wouldn't be any worse than the current problem of inadvertently changing to an overlying object. But the current problem only comes up occasionally (at least in 2D), and so I think a momentary key to turn off selection/deselection would be enough. It would fit in nicely with the current set of momentary keys that modify the 2D Select tool. It would also make it possible to move and copy by remote vector without changing out of the 2D Select tool, a very elegant and VW-like way of doing that.

To use the data display bar for a 2D move, draw a temporary rectangle representing the move vector. Start at the reference point on the object you want to move, and enter the coordinates of the move distance. Then grab the object at that reference point and drag it to the opposite corner of the rectangle. (edited out -- better to use the drag-back method described by David, below) A quick way to enter the coordinates is to use the numeric keypad -- Enter, then the X value, then Enter, then the Y value, then Enter again. And since you want numeric precision, you should always either type the values in the data display bar or else accept a constraint point (hit Enter to lock it in and go on to the next cell). If you just drag to an unconstrained point, choosing it based on what you see in the data display bar, it won't necessarily be precisely what you see there.

David wrote: "At the moment you can't click anywhere on an overlying solid and select it - you can only select it by clicking on an edge or vertex." I quoted that in my reply, and spoke specifically of filled and unfilled rectangles, and he replied that he had the opposite experience with both v11 and v12. Also, the thing David and I were discussing was "...the 2D Selection tool's ability to select/de-select objects", and how sometimes it shouldn't select/de-select but just move the existing selection set. So that's where I got his "no" for 2D. Could be wrong. Only he can say for sure. I inferred a "yes" for 3D because when Amy said she can select by filled area, he asked her: "Are you really talking about a solid 3D object here?" I don't know why he would suggest that unless he himself is able to select 3D objects by fill. And his suggestion that she was changing the subject to 3D further reinforces my notion that we were all talking about 2D solid-filled objects until then. But maybe not. David? As you said, Ray, it seems more likely different parts of the elephant. In particular, the 2D/3D thing shouldn't be reversed, unless it's something about northern/southern hemisphere, like with the direction water swirls when it drains.

Ray, the 3D part of the chart is for whether you can select a 3D object by its fill when you can see the fill. Can you do that? If so, then you're a "yes / yes" on the chart. Jeff's "no" for 3D means he can't select 3D objects by fill "in any mode", as he said when I asked him about Shaded and Unshaded Polygon modes.