ccroft

Hey Pat Maybe you need to take a trip to Germany to see this thing in action! "Spent too much money on software in the past that fell well short of expectations...." Do I smell Autocad/Pattern Systems? That didn't work too well for the shop I was in 8 years ago. Autocad is great for designing space shuttles, but it's a little much for our needs. I think prices will fall as the market grows and new packages start to compete. I've been able to do estimating, parts lists, material lists and more using the existing features of Vectorworks: a library of symbols,worksheets, records and vectorscript.No cnc, but the parts lists are 100% accurate as long as I input the right stuff. This is only for the basic casework, and I can't imagine another shop using it, but it's free...except for the hours and hours I spent figuring it out. I think the big money goes into making a program that's easy to understand, easy to use and easy to customize. I didn't know there was a solution for commercial millwork that will handle such things as curved reception counters easily. What is that one called?

I think that 1,000 would be great for the base module. Cabinetware and 20/20 start at around $6,000 for the design module and increment up to around $15,000 with rendering,parts lists,estimating and cnc modules (not sure if 20/20 has estimating and cnc).That's in Canada and it's way too much money for our shop. I think it would be great if they adopted this modular set-up. And bear in mind that the real cost of InteriorWorks would include your investment in v-works, which would double the cost for a new user. The beauty is that you get vectorworks too. I know a few kitchen designers who can't draw in 20/20 what I can in vectorworks. And you can't beat it as a 2D layout tool. I don't think that $1,000 is too cheap for a suite of 5 of 6 plug-ins. The estimating part isn't that complicated either. BTW, I think that for estimating edge-banding it's more useful to have a total length for the job and apply a per foot price. More accurate, flexible (what if they want 1/4" fir edge?) and plus you know how much of the stuff you need to complete the job. Very useful if it's a hard-to-get 3mm PVC. Nice to see some cabinet people on the board! I've been using v-works in the shop for about 3 years.

This looks like a great product and I've been keeping an eye on it for a year or two. I have another question....how much will it cost? I noticed their optimizer was around $1000 (if I did my euro conversion right). Might be pricy!

I use it every day to price and schedule millwork jobs. In addition to records I have found the class system to be a very powerful tool. So, for example, if I draw a series of various sized rectangles and put them in a class "front" vworks can report total square footage(cost), total perimeter(edge banding) and a complete list of the different sizes. I actually use a library of symbols for cabinets. Each symbol contains all the parts recquired for fabrication and a record that holds labour estimates and hardware. I use a variety of worksheets and a couple of scripts to sort this info. While this system has vastly increased speed and accuracy in bidding and building jobs, I am the only one in the shop that can use it. The potential is definitely there.

I just wanted to say I agree with Petri. I run a millwork shop and rely on the database features to produce hardware lists, complete cabinet parts lists sorted by size, material take-offs and estimates. On some jobs this can be 3,000 or more pieces. I have found this info to be completely reliable. If it wasn't we would be out of business. Most of this is done with the built in functions. I did have to learn v-script to get some of the sorting that I require, and that represents a large investment of time to somebody like me with no programming experience. So I agree that the database could be better. I'm just speaking to the reliability.

Joe I'm wondering about your memory set-up. Do all the machines have the same thing? 8.5.2 is rock solid on my G4. I don't use virtual memory, I have 200 megs for V-works out of 640 available. I've found that larger ram allotments don't do anything for Vworks and that everything runs faster without VM. If I had 256 ram I'd give v-works around 125 and turn off VM. You need to leave plenty of ram for the system, who's requirements will vary depending on what you're doing. Maybe you're choking the system a bit by giving Vworks such a large ram partition. Sorry if you've heard this all before.... [ 10-09-2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: ccroft ]

Thanks for the link Gareth. Do you have any experience with wacom in general or the lens cursor or mouse in particular? The mouse and the lens cursor are cordless and I'm wondering what kind of range they have and how accurate they are.

I was wondering if anybody knows what it's really called, if there's one that works for vworks/mac and who makes them. It's an input device that is clear, has a sight in the center and a way to click. In my case it would be used for doing take-offs directly from paper plans by clicking and tracing. TIA [ 09-30-2002, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: ccroft ]

Gustaf During some rare idle time I gave your problem some thought. I'm not very familiar with the fine points of radiant heat layout and I don't know if you've already tried this but this is what I might do: Create an "s" like symbol that would connect end to end to make a zigzag and select convert to group in options in the symbol creation dialog. This allows resizing with either the Object Info Palette or by dragging hangles. Use the offset tool to place the symbol at the required distance from a wall. Use duplicate array on the group to fill the room. Group the array and resize as needed. Hope this gives you some new ideas. [ 08-24-2002: Message edited by: ccroft ]

Have you looked at "snap to offset" in smart edges in the constraint palette? (double click the icon of a square with a diagonal touching one corner) Of course the ultimate solution would be to write some vectorscript along the lines of the "batt" example in the custom solutions book. Trouble is, in the time would take to figure this out you could have hand drawn a thousand lay-outs.

"Vectorworks has unexpectedly quit" is a message from the operating system, not v-works. The OS doesn't know why. Other such messages include "The Finder has unexpectedly quit" or "Error Type xyz" and they're all pretty useless as a trouble shooting tool. I use revert a fair bit and have never had a crash. Maybe it is a network thing as was mentioned earlier. I run v-works on one machine.

Dean As Chris said, knowing what a piece of script does and looking at the code to try to see how it is achieved can be helpfull. You can also use the script button in "create plug-in" to see other examples. I learned a lot from a book on Pascal. Vectorscript is based on Pascal, and the syntax is pretty much identical. You can learn a lot about the basic structures and coding in general this way. The one I used is called Programming in Pascal by Nell Dale. I would suggest that you first write a script that simply makes the basic drawing of one of your symbols. This is chapter 3 - "Document Scripts" in the Custom Solutions book (version 8.5). You can make it adjustable later. The most important v-script resource can be found in the vectorworks help files under vectorscript: the function reference. With a little bone-headed determination, much trial and error, and a few questions asked here you will succeed. Step by step instuctions in plain English is beyond my abilities. [ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: ccroft ]

I think the hardest part is getting an image with the figure you want that will tile. Obviously, vertical grain is much easier to tile than flat grain. The best solution is to take your own picture with a large sample and crop the image in photoshop for tile-ability. There are some excellent tips for this in the mailing list. I've had good success with some of the woodgrain laminate samples available at manufacturers websites. WilsonArts Ahorn is one that tiles well if you're looking for something on the light side. [ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: ccroft ]

Sounds like a great idea! I'm not an expert vscripter, but I think the logic would be straight forward while the implementation would be lengthy. For each attribute you would need a get and a set and for each tool you would need something similar.That's where things might get interesting as I don't think there is a get for how an object was created, so you would have to go by object type and decide on the appropriate tool. The simplest example would be a line...if object type is line then get line tool. If anyone else thinks this is the way to go at it I might work on it...when I get some time.

I guess we're getting a little off topic here, but I'd like to weigh in on ray's side. I have had NO downtime running Vworks/Rworks on a g4 in the past 3 years. (touch wood) I only use it about 3 or 4 hrs a day though.

I'm a foreman in a cabinet and furniture shop and I use the program daily. I have customized the program as Mathew has described and beyond. I have a library of symbols (this means you click twice to insert a drawing of a sub assembly) scripts to modify their sizes, and worksheets that report parts lists, materials, and labour estimates. All our estimating is now pretty much a byproduct of the drawing. I don't see why post and beam would be at all different. It has taken me about 3 years to get this level of functionality. But even in the early months the program was invaluable as a lay-out and shop drawing tool, long before any of these other ideas were born. I originally used it as a 2d drafting tool. It is also the first and only CAD I have used. It was difficult at first, so I would agree with the other poster that some training would help. There are tutorials and some 3rd party books that helped me greatly, not to mentions this forum....that and bone-headed determination.

As someone who builds furniture I would think that they wanted construction details like joinery and a few sections showing material thickness and such. Plus some hardware specs. In short, a complete set of drawings showing how the piece will actually be built as opposed to how it will look.

Machine: It sounds like I use vworks in much the same way you do,though the materials differ and I don't have to go to acad. Well...maybe it's pretty different. I usually duplicate groups in place and move them to a new layer in order to see the sub-assemblies by themselves. On the new layer more detail dimensions are added without cluttering the main drawing. Sometimes I will add more drawing detail. Of course, I have no idea what this would do to acad. Just thought I'd share a different approach even if it won't work for you.

Pat - I am a foreman of a millwork shop and have been using VW for all our drawings and lay-outs for almost three years. It is an indispensable tool,especially for lay-out. Full sized drawings on sheets of MDF are long gone. I almost never use the supplied cabinet tools anymore. I do use Renderworks, and I have a few designers that will pay to see a fully rendered model of something like a complicated reception counter. For these it is possible to go to say Pionite's web site, download a plam sample and apply it to the model. Clients love this too. So I say get the base vworks to start and maybe add renderworks later if you have the need, and the sooner the better. Hannes - I've been watching your site for over a year waiting for your door plugin to become available. How's that going? [ 03-28-2002: Message edited by: ccroft ]

"Printing to post-script and then converting to pdf with an external app seams unduly complicated." If you do enough of this, it's very easy to automate the whole thing with distiller. You set up a "watched folder" and distiller will write pdf for anything dropped there, save it to a destination folder and delete the pscript if desired. You set up a desktop translator which writes the pscript and saves the file to the watched folder. So all you do is command-p and select the desktop translator as the printer. Distiller provides a very handy job-option feature that allows you to save as many preference sets as you want for various types of PDF output.E.G. one for print and one for screen display. I've never used OSX. [ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: ccroft ]

Mathew Thanks for responding. I'm not able to send the file as it has become 2d only. I've tried to recreate a simplified version of the original and so far it works fine! I have a hunch it had something to do with how I was using "sum". If I run into this again I'll save a copy. FYI: I did have to recalculate to see the changes. The only search criteria was class and the only functions were =c, =count, =width, = height, and =volume/width/depth. The extrudes were from 3d symbols converted to groups and ungrouped, could this have something to do with it? Anyway, thanks for putting me back to work on this. It has huge potential in my line of work.

g4 533, OS 9.1, vworks 8.5.2 I'm trying to build a worksheet that will list 3d extrudes and report the height width and depth. Height and width is obvious and I am able to get depth with =volume/width/height, but the list won't summarize correctly. So if I have 5 objects with the same dims I might get a list like: 3 - 3/4x24x361 - 3/4x24x361 - 3/4x24x36 Furthermore, the summary changes if the objects are moved! Is this a limitation of 8.5.2 that is working in 9? Might this be part of the upcoming Mechanical add-on? Or am I missing something? FYI: This is a parts list for a cabinet-shop. I'm currently using records for the 3rd dim and that works. What I have in mind would be simpler and less prone to error from filling in and attaching records. Thanks for any input.