Jump to content

Samuel Derenboim

  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by Samuel Derenboim

  1. On 7/7/2020 at 4:27 AM, gester said:

    @Samuel Derenboim 

    yeah, the polish certification document for the usage permit is formally standardised.


    - the first page is the overall information of the building with the graphic display of its energy performance (enclosed is some older version before the tightening of the energy performance demand - the change is in the scope spread on the graphic ribbon - in this case the building doesn't comply with the requirements). the software can handle dwg imports, but not ifc models, so the calculations take approx. 90-95% of the creation time (a pretty cumbersome task, especially calculating walls and openings, depending on geographic directions), the rest is the adjustment of the installation systems. energy calculations are similar for all energy certification standards, what matters is the overall result, regarding particular requirements.


    - second page is the description of the installation systems


    - third page is the calculations with improvement recommendations


    - the last page is the guides and notes - usually left as it is.


    the certificate is valid for 10 years, and the creator is liable for any claims within this period. there's also a possibility to buy insurance for this scope, along with the professional designer's insurance.


    is it somehow similar in the u.s.a.?







    Our requirements have been much more rigorous as of late. There have to be areas for every fenestration and opaque wall face on the building per wall type for every floor each with their designated orientation (east, west, north, south). If we need to do something like performance values, we have to do average UA calculations for opaque wall types and total average UA calculations for total building areas in order to determine performance. The math itself is quite easy, just extracting the information out of energos and Vectorworks is the challenge.

  2. Gester, thats interesting. I know that you are regulated by a different code in Europe (could be something like PASIVHAUS). Do those 4 sheets include calculations, areas, and visual summaries of the building? I'm sure there are performance approaches and prescriptive approaches to energy compliance / performance. I know here in America, the IBC (international building code) shows 2 different requirements that allows for flexible wall design based on a performance method, and a typical wall design based on a prescriptive method. Which one does the Polish legislature require from you?

  3. I've been having a great amount of trouble getting geometric information from polygons due with respect to different orientation. Among those options are :

    #ΔX#, #ΔY#, #ΔZ#. Upright polygons do not display length, height or width unless they have a thickness. Sometimes it is easier to calculate areas of surfaces rather than geometry because of the way it can be pulled from larger geometry

  4. Good afternoon,

    After tinkering around with the data visualization feature, it has become extremely hard to tag objects like walls or windows that are behind the desired objects to be viewed. In this case, in the image below, I am trying to tag walls, curtainwalls windows and doors by orientation, but all other objects behind it get in the way. Tag all objects doesn't work anymore in the viewport for some reason (it doesn't align the tags). Additionally, on older machines, the amount of processing required is substantial, and takes a long time to render. Not only that, its extremely unresponsive when adding annotation to the annotation layer.


    In an effort to save memory, improve memory efficiency and not have objects being tagged that are behind the desired objects in the viewport with the same record or OIP, I wanted to request an option to not render the objects that either do not have certain information (like hide all other objects, rather than greying them out) or hide objects based on field value etc... I think it would be a very welcome addition for efficiency of using the visualization feature without expending an extreme amount of memory. (This is referring to the option all the way at the bottom of the screen - instead of see normally or greyed out, add "Do Not Show" or "Do Not Render")



  5. @michaelk  Yep, a lot of it makes sense. A lot of these problems could be simply solved by using the #ΔY#, #ΔX# or #ΔZ# in the worksheets like they do in tags. My question is, why wouldn't the information in the tags match the same information in the worksheets? I mean, one could link the fields to the #ΔY#, #ΔX# or #ΔZ# functions via tag, but it only updates it when the object is tagged. If it didn't have that information before, it has to be re-tagged. If the geometry is updated, the same thing. :/. Its a little frustrating. 🙂


    Few questions here :

    1. Based on your answer, I'm guessing #ΔY#, #ΔX# or #ΔZ# cannot be called out in worksheets? (as these functions would solve all of the above concerns regarding orientation.)

    2. If I link the #ΔY#, #ΔX# or #ΔZ# Tag functions to a field, and i need to update the geometry, is there a script that can update the tag references upon updating the worksheet?

    3. By the looks of it, #ΔY#, #ΔX# or #ΔZ# functions cannot be transferred via link using an integer/number function, only the text based function. Is there a way to convert them to numbers after they have been converted to text? (something like txt2num?)

  6. Thank you@michaelk . I forgot to mention it was a polygon extracted from a 3d surface. So the polygon was oriented in the xz and / or yz direction. I have attached a file for you to look at. Width returns the length. Length returns perimeter. I cannot extract true height. and Area returns the correct surface area. Do you think it is a bug? I've read on other forums that even on extrusions, height width and length don't exactly work properly because of their orientation in space, i'm guessing it might be a similar issue.

    I've also tried subtracting topbound and bottom bound to get the height, but that also doesn't work.


  7. Hi everybody,


    The functions like #ΔY#, #ΔX# or #ΔZ# can be used for polygons to callout rough dimensions of polygons via the data tag tool. I can't seem to be able to find it in the worksheet functions. do they exist? Functions like length width and height cannot be called out if the polygon has punch outs, and only these functions will call out the proper information.


    Thank you in advance.

  8.  Thank you @Luka Stefanovic , I agree with most of what you say, doing energy calculations, one has to be extremely tedious and meticulous with the conveyed information in the worksheet. If you want to work for only the client - this would be enough. If you need to present this information to local building department and zoning ordinance (in my case - New York) the information has to be verifiable (this ultimately tests the tools legitimacy to the building department)


    Since Energos only provides summed areas and no charts or worksheets to sum up wall UA averages between every cardinal axis,I've since needed to use the information directly from plugin objects to display in a worksheet, rather than using energos directly. I do not know if it is a requirement in other states, but in New York, i can definitely attest to the fact that tabular approaches to spaces, wall areas and U values are required. In fact, it is something i am working on as we speak. This only came up now because I am working on a project that attempts to implement the same rules I've used below. My solution to the problem is a separate matter.


    After having tested energos first hand i wasn't able to extract several things. (look through the earlier message board to see some of the attachments i've provided as a resource...otherwise i can send them to you directly if you wish). The things spoken about in this thread that cannot be extracted directly was the biggest area of concern.


    1. Exterior surface area (Like Energos does) - you've commented on this, and you are accurate in your description. If you have another way of extracting it, would love to hear it.


    2. Orientation of the walls in reference to Cardinal Axis (like Energos does). As far as I know, and @Nikolay Zhelyazkov  mentioned, only the energos label tool can do it. If you can extract it without the tool, would love to utilize that feature as well!


    3. Length of exterior surface area (inside wall length and outside wall length cannot be obtained, only the center line of the wall). Can be deduced if you divide surface area by the grosswallheight. but it goes back to problem 1 above.


    3a. There is a trick you can use in order to calculate pure exterior wall surface area. By using an additional component in the wall, you can make the component thickness .001 inches or something similar. That way when you calculate ComponentArea in this case, it will return the area of that component (net area at least), and length can be deduced from it as well. Problem is, using the component area trick - only works on solid walls - it does not work on curtain walls.


    4. Since all wall lengths are calculated from the center of the wall, any walls connected to other walls (L connection) must add wall thickness in order to get the pure exterior surface. Full wall thickness is added to a wall connected on both sides, half wall thickness is added to walls connected to only one side. Unfortunately, there is no function in worksheets that can be inserted to check for walls joined in L mode, nor is it possible to check if it is connected on only one side or on both sides of the wall. Had there been such a worksheet function, this problem can possibly be solved using a conditional =if() statement for both Lengths, and by extension, net wall surface area for both curtain walls and solid walls.


    5. Corner windows are also measured differently, they can end up having a different measured length from the outside than the computed length provided in the PIO. (needs to be dimensionally verifiable for the building department). This is the same center line problem as the walls.


    6. In order to get information that's taken from energos, record information can be extracted from the label tool. This includes cardinal axis and exterior surface area. (problem 2) It is possible to extract but it is modifiable - not like parameters PIO like walls, windows, doors, etc... can be computed through functions like area, length, etc... that end up being greyed out. Additionally, energos creates a separate record for every object that in the document. If every object has a separate record, it would be impossible to document or extract properly or conveniently. This was the basis and the crux of my criticism.


    Thank you again for looking into this. As far as I know, very few, if not, no other software company listens to the user posts and concerns. Your team has addressed many concerns in the past of this forums wishes, and I am personally grateful for it.

    • Like 1
  9. @Luka Stefanovic 

    Thank you for your reply.


    I agree, that it is a useful to evaluate the information when you are designing, however, These calculations can be reiterated just by using worksheets as well. Much of the information that energos shows goes through an additional plugin object that doesn't necessarily work the parametric aspects of the model itself. This is something I ran into when trying to get gross wall areas and net wall areas from curtainwalls and regular walls. I think that is a severe limitation because you cannot extract certain information from energos like exterior wall surface area, interior wall surface area, etc... What energos does instead it takes a one time extraction of the plugin objects and copies that information into a the label plugin object making it much more cumbersome to verify the information that it calculates. It would be easier to extract the information in realtime just like a worksheet does from any plugin object, that way any information energos uses can be extracted into custom worksheets. Just some food for thought 🙂


    Regarding much of the information from space objects that A Mcdonal mentioned can be cleverly manipulated without having to enter energos information, but rather extracting information from a separate record and combining it with space objects with plumbing or heating records. If information matches, it calculates demand temperatures for those particular areas. It is something I plan on integrating in the future of my workflows. But as it stands, Energos still doesn't display the surface area of wall and curtainwall objects correctly, no does it display the areas for corner windows correctly (this is a bug that was submitted) that prohibit accurate results. As a reference, I used grosswallarea_net versus Component net area and it had a difference of 6 - 8% fenestration  area percentage with the same geometry using windows, corner windows and curtainwalls as fenestration objects. 6-8% can be a very large difference between heat loss / gain, and consequentially, a substantial impact on mechanical system requirements.

  10. There is a way to convert revit models into vectorworks, but it does involve quite a few steps. Bottom line is, there is a method to import an entire directory worth of revit models into VW and then modify them one by one unfortunately.

  11. Hi Everyone,


    Is it possible to assign dimensional properties of a wall, curtainwall, etc... to IFCWallStandardCase.BaseQuantities using the expert formula function? I can't seem to be able to find WallArea_Gross or WallArea_Net under object properties like I would in the worksheet object properties. Can something like this be done?

  12. @Nikolay Zhelyazkov Thank you again for your input. Just some notes if you are to help design a (perhaps) for reliable system for energy performance modeling....


    In terms of the element ID, I think youre right. Seems that the numbers displayed in the elements list display the information for that particular row.  For me there are two problems with that. Notwithstanding the surface area math and corner window improper area calculations, one would need to create a separate table column for every element ID in energos in the hopes that it will return the proper information. I suppose one could use a conditional statement along with a concat callout referencing a +1 sum starting from element 1 to try to display all of the fields, but it seems certainly counterintuitive. Only yesterday i learned of the concat command and how useful it can be.


    The second problem that i see is that the energos label records the information one time, and prints it out as editable text rather than something that's directly related to the wall , window, door etc. (correct me if I'm wrong, but the worksheet you sent showed the text as editable, therefor it wasn't a constrained record directly relating to a wall, window, etc...). the problem with that is it opens up potential user error should a user update the plan, but not the energos label.


    I also don't understand why energos does not record the wall, floor or roof type name in the name field along with doors and windows. Seems strange to me that it doesn't identify which walls are which should the situation arise that there are multiple wall types in one orientation. It also does not record the story on which the walls, slabs, windows or doors are located. The only clue you might get is the R value.


    I spoke to a representative yesterday regarding this issue because i had a separate problem from this one, but since energos came up in our conversation, i sent a sample file showing my attempt at getting live information from walls, curtainwalls, windows and doors. That will be the information I use for the local zoning ordinance for a tabular approach. Hope it helps.


    Thanks again.

  13. Thank you Pat,


    That's strange. I have VW2020 SP 3.1 as well, and it does not delete using the same method. Just in case, we're not talking about deleting the record from the resource manager, right?


    edit. Did hard reset, reset plugin objects and reset data manager. Still no luck ...

  14. I did do that.

    I got a single row returned for the south wall, without any understanding of the representation of the areas - which are windows, which are doors, or walls, etc...



    Here is actual building element list from PIO



  15. @Nikolay Zhelyazkov  Hm, I tried that. for some reason i can't get it to work.


    Also, since you submitted a bug report, just wanted to let you know, the areas for corner windows are inaccurate as well. If you take a look at a corner window - Dimensions are 6'5 1/8" x 5'6 (they are measured in the window PIO as 6'-0" by 5'6). In either situation, they do not amount to 66 s.f.



  16. Good Morning @Nikolay Zhelyazkov ,

    Thank you for your help.


    1. I've taken a look at the Energos label settings, and i noticed that it has some of the information, but I do not know how to extract it into the worksheets, namely Areas or orientation. I've added a space to the test drawing and it deduces North, East, West, South correctly, but getting that data out is the hardest part.


    Do you have a string or formula that I can enter to get area and orientation information for walls, windows, slabs, etc... in a worksheet?


    2. I'm attaching the test drawing with the data sheets inside. Compare the areas inside, they do not unfortunately calculate the outer wall area surface, or the net area. I'm not sure what they're calculating as the areas are off by 4-6 s.f. each. Here is an example screenshot for reference.


    Energy_Bim_Additional Wall Insulation test_Forum.vwx




    So in the screen shot are three windows that are important - 1 - energos building elements list, 2 - a worksheet that extracts wall area lengths, gross areas and net areas, and three, the extraction of geometry from the wall itself to calculate the true surface area.


    The west wall surface is extracted as 208.77 s.f. (not sure if this is gross or net) however, either the way the calculation doesn't work.

    Lets say for argument sake it is net. We have one window on that wall that is 25.67 s.f. in area. The actual wall height is 10'-0" by 21'5 1/8". The core is placed at the center of the stud side.


    208.77 + 25.67 = 234.44 s.f. / 10' height = 23.44 foot length. Actual wall length is 21'5 1/8". The area seems closest to sheet rock side (noted as 20'8 7/8" length x 10'-0" = 209 s.f. +-. I don't know why it doesn't calculate the outer surface area. See below for screen shot of wall style properties. (note: changing the insulation from outer finish to insulation doesn't change the area)




    If I extract the surface of the wall, I get 188.589 s.f. (net) + 25.67 s.f. window = 214.259 s.f. / 10'-0 Wall height = 21.4259 ft length or 21' 5.11" which is the correct length.


    This is not to say that the gross area and the length of the wall in the worksheet are grossly different - 20' 2 1/8" Length, and Area being 201.766 s.f, but at least I understand how Vectorworks PIO is getting that information.


    Thank you for your consideration and help once again.

  • Create New...